I have always wondered about the Meshichists (messianic chabad movement that believes the Rebbe is the messiah) as many of us have. Chabad is infamous because of it and I have heard many people say outright that they wouldn’t have anything to with chabad because of it. I have even heard some folks say that Lubavitch is the closest thing to Judaism we have – I take offense to all this – being a big fan of chabad and understand their pain, since most of them are not of this belief (just because they are addicted to their rebbe – doesn’t mean they all believe he is the moshiach). An article today on Vos Iz Neias is likely to be filled with hateful comments – one must wonder how long the friendly attitude of the non-chabad world lasted after the terrorist attacks of Mumbai – the article is about this Rabbi who takes an open stand against Meshichists in his book in which he calls them Apikorsim.
Are people who believe in the Rebbe being moshiach really Apikorsim?
I always thought that to be a true apikores you had to know all of torah and then go against it, what about all the folks who just believe because their parents believe? Does this Rabbi Menashe Klein really think that everyone of this movement is brilliant enough in torah and be going against it?
My other issue is this: No one has ever actually been able to tell me if believing a dead person is the moshiach is against halacha. I have a couple of meshichist acquaintances and although they insist I get hammered via fabrengin before they tell me the reasons – they tell me their is halachic and scripture based backing to their decision (I have learned that anything can be backed up if you skew translations or ideas) but no one has ever actually told me that its against the torah.
I have heard all the arguments against believing the rebbe is the moshiach – which are all tirades which end up being anti-chabad as a whole and never really informed. I was at the Rebbes funeral, but one meshichist told me that they switched the bodies and that Charlie buttons is Eliyahu and that the Rebbe is hiding out in 770 somewhere – I should note that this Rabbi was kicked out of chabad and practices witchcraft and abuses drugs, so maybe he wasn’t the best person to talk about this sort of thing.
I have heard the flipside from a chabad Rabbi wishing not to be mentioned – he said that chabad is a cult (hew was born into it) and that 99% of chabadnicks believe in the rebbe being the moshiach in some way they just don’t admit it (I doubt this) and his superiors hate him for it because he is a freaking shliach with dissenting opinions.
I myself would never become chabad just because I personally don’t believe in being part of one group, I don’t agree with any one group that much – I just think chabad does the best job at what they do – yes there are problems such as the one listed above – or is it really a problem?
I wonder if anyone will take the meshichist friendly side?
Please try to keep this sane – don’t be hateful – be smart!
I dont see the big deal, its really clear in Sanhedrin (last perek, cant remember the daf), every talmid in the time of the gemora believed his rebbe was moshiach, and they came up with pesukim to justify it. (one of the yeshivas had a teacher named menachem, but thats besides the point)
On the other hand, It’s hard to find a jewish person alive who didnt respect the rebbe, and its clear that he was into moshiach, (especially in the nuns) Theres no doubt that some people take it too far, the rebbes’ main message was to spread yiddishkiet, I dont see where they decided this was the required method, but thats not my issue.
If you can look past the crazies who think that the rebbe is hiding out under 770, you realise that the rebbe clearly said in the 50s (after he succeeded the previous rebbe) that the previous rebbe was moshiach, and also that he was alive in a physical body … how? no idea, but due to the respect i have for the Rebbe, I wont say that it’s incorrect, he said alot of things that i dont understand, this isnt the first or the last. (Just btw the rebbe went to the ohel of the previous rebbe at the very least monthly, even though he clearly said that he was alive.)
daf 98 amud bais
I do agree that I could never be Chabad. I definitely do not believe that the Rebbe is moshiach, however I love Chabad and the things they do. They are such a welcoming and amazing group of people. They always try and help anyone, no matter who it is. How can you say something bad about a group like that.
On a separate note, I got an email yesterday from Chabad for the “emergency funding drive” and the click to donate link was broken. It took me to a page that didn’t exist haha.
I am just glad someone stood up to these crazies but I wish he had been a little less harsh
Meshichistim claim to get their haliachic proofs from the Rambam, Laws of Kings. A quick look at those chapters in the Rambam show easily that the ‘proofs’ selected therein are highly out of context, and eclipsed by other sure halachot which render it impossible for the Rebbe, Z”l, to be mashiach. Its a tragic and overexposed movement in an otherwise praiseworthy group.
explain why it’s impossible.
jorge, can u give a few examples.
The dead are dead 4ever.
Elvis never died
You don’t have to know the whole torah to be an apikorus. Rav Brisker ZTL said nebach an apikorus is oich an apikorus–an apikorus due to unfortunate circumstances –no fault of his own–is still an apikorus. Most tinok shenishba fall under this category; they don’t know better so they don’t get olam haba, but they don’t get punished either.
To be an apikorus, you either have to disagree with the 13 ikarim intentionally or unintentionally; or you have to disagree with something outside the 13 ikarim the torah says intentionally.
You can also have beliefs that are apikiorus without being an apikorus…if you disagree with the torah unintentionally (because you are too dumb or ignorant to figure it out) but still believe the 13 ikarim; you are not a defacto apikrous although your beliefs are. Most mesichistim fall in this category. You can still count them in a minyan, and they can still make kiddush for you etc. However you still have to stay far away from their teachings since they are teaching and preaching anti-torah apikorsus material and should protest when they are misinforming the ignorant.
Elokhistim–those really wild chabadniks who think the rebbe is Hashem incarnate are defacto apikorsum since this conflicts with the 13 ikarim. Those can not be counted in a minyan, etc.
if you justify the lubavitcher dogma ( elokhist or meshichist) as being jewish, wouldn’t that make ‘messianic jews’ jewish just as well? where do you draw the line? The only difference between the Rebbe followers and jesus’s first jewish followers are really….only 2000 years.
Lubavich keep all torah and mitzvos behidur!
Unlike other groups you mentioned.
I did some research, and apparently, according to the book of acts, the first talmidim of jesus kept torah (if you believe this account or what the talmud says on the matter) and made sacrafices in the temple when it still stood. when goyishe sympathizers wanted to be in on it, they ruled that the gentiles had to keep the 7 noachide laws but nothing else. The only thing is, all of those 1st century ‘meshichists’ died off/were persecuted by a beit din and whats left is a bunch of gentiles trying to merge jewish teachings with pagan ideals. what would it look like if the gentile sympathizers and friends of lubavtich tried to ‘convert’?
I liken the meshichistim to radical islamists. They make all the noise, they get all of the attention, and they give anyone else in that group a bad name. I don’t think they are apikorsim, they’re just crazy. What can you do with crazy?
I was raised Lubavitch and am not what one would consider Orthodox anymore. But I have a lot of respect for the good Lubavitch does. You would think, having rejected that lifestyle, that I would have a reason to bash them. To the contrary, I adore them. I think that Lubavitch does more for the Jewish world community than any other organization/group, johnny-come-lately kiruvniks especially. I think a lot of the hate stems from out and out jealousy of Lubavitch’s success, hot women, and independent minds. The meshichistim are the excuse people use for expressing their hatred for Lubavitch. They can start out small by bashing the obvious crazy and then move on to what they really hate, Lubavitch in general.
Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s a shame that meshichistim are able to cast a shadow on the good of Lubavitch, but such is life.
ur not even frum so u probaly havent learned the sichos yet still u talk what a CHUTSPAH
Said R. Na’hman: If Messiah is among the living he is a man like myself, of whom it reads [Jer. xxx. 21]: “And their leader shall be of themselves, and their ruler shall proceed from the midst of them.” Said Rabh: If he is among the living it is our holy rabbi, and if he was from the death it was Daniel
perek yud aleph of sanhedrin.
if anyone bothered to read what he said you will see he was saying that people who believe the rebbe is ALIVE are apikorsim. nothing to do with moshiach. furthermore all off this was already said by reb yoel kahn years ago. he basically quoted him.
Said R. Na’hman: If Messiah is among the living he is a man like myself, of whom it reads [Jer. xxx. 21]: “And their leader shall be of themselves, and their ruler shall proceed from the midst of them.” Said Rabh: If he is among the living it is our holy rabbi, and if he was from the death it was Daniel
perek yud aleph of sanhedrin.
if anyone bothered to read what he said you will see he was saying that people who believe the rebbe is ALIVE are apikorsim. nothing to do with moshiach. furthermore all off this was already said by reb yoel kahn years ago. he basically quoted him.
I have to say that the Meshichist side is very dangereous. I am a BT coming from the orthodox Messianic branch. A lot of Messianics base there position’s validity on how the Meshichist still have a place within Judaism. It won’t go anywhere, but it represents Judaism poorly.
However, I really respect chabadniks and study with a few on a regular basis. They are a very good group of people.
The role of Moshiach is to also be a prophet, correct? Torah teaches us the disqualifications for a prophet… if what he says doesn’t come true. So, is there anything that the Rebbe, z”l, say that didn’t come true? Seems like that would be the easiest way of disproving it.
Good point!
all Rebbes prophecies have come true with amazing precision!
So def. a valid prophet!
BRILLIANT
Rabbi Aharon Feldman, dean of the Ner Israel Rabbinical College wrote “…it is clear that [messianists] are ignorant of Torah, thus, it is impossible to rely on their decisions in Torah matters… One who believes that amongst all those who have ever lived, the late leader of the Chabad movement is the best candidate to be our redeemer shows that he lacks any understanding of Torah values. The rulings of such a man cannot be relied upon in any matter of Torah, and a fortiori he cannot serve as a leader or Rabbi.”
Rabbi Aharon Feldman makes a clear distinction between the “Mishichists” and the “Elokists”. He rules that it is forbidden to associate with Elokists under any circumstances due to their heresy and they cannot be counted for a Minyan. He rules it is also forbidden to support the mishichists in any way that lends credence to their messianic beliefs though they are not strictly heretics.
Rabbi Zev Leff stated, “The concept of a dead Moshiach who comes back to be Messiah is not a Jewish concept.” Also, “To daven [pray] in a shul [synagogue] where the majority have crooked ideas about Yiddishkeit [Judaism] and recite things that have no place as part of the davening [prayer], better not to daven in a shul like that.”
Rabbi Yaakov Weinberg, a rosh yeshiva of Yeshivas Ner Yisroel, told an enquiring student (even before the Rebbe’s death) that he should pray alone rather than in a Chabad synagogue because “they pray to a different deity”.
January 17, 2000, the Chief Rabbinate of Israel released the following announcement: “Individuals who are undesirable in the eyes of rabbinic scholars are exploiting the signatures of Rabbis and turning the simple faith in the coming of the Messiah into propaganda whose end cannot be foreseen. One must be careful and warn people that one must believe in the straightforward faith that the Messiah will come as our Rabbis have taught us, and anyone who adds diminishes.”
The Executive Vice President of the Orthodox Union, Rabbi Tzvi Hersh Weinreb stated “The belief [messianism] is certainly not mainstream Judaism, and in the eyes of many is a blasphemy to Judaism.
I am not a Lubavitcher but I would like to make note that Rabbi Aharon Feldman has come out against even the normal Lubavitch movement before.
you just quoted people who called lubavitch apikorsim when we started the kiruv.
YETH
Wow, well put Chainef! I’m with you all the way.
If I understand correctly, it seems that to claim that mesichists are outside of Jewish thought, one would have to go against R’Aaron. My teacher had smicha from the Rav, so I tend to lean on the Rav and R’Aaron when I don’t have a solid opinion on the matter.
Where do we learn that an apikoris is someone who denies any of the 13 articles? I’m not challenging, I’m asking, because that seems odd to me. There was plenty of opposition to the Rambam, both on writing articles of faith and on the content of his articles. What was the halacha before the Rambam?
My first exposure to the controversy was in the summer of 1993, while the Rebbe was still alive. That summer I went to Camp Regesh in Moonsey. My best friend there was Chabad (long since gone off the derech). I spent many a shabbos by him. At the time, he was my Lubavitch friend, and most of what I know about Chabad was from the weekends I spent by him. I recall that his stepfather used to make us take our tefillin off during Aleinu and hurry out of the shteibl they davened in and would never tell us why. One time, I peeked in the window and heared the kids–who were standing in front of the aron–reciting “yechi adoneinu…” and the adults repeating after them. My friend’s stepfather grabbed my arm and hurried me away. He would not explain why. I rescently asked my friend about this, and he had nothing to say (he and his stepfather weren’t close).
The closest thing I’ve seen to a persuasive argument against meshichism is David Berger’s book “The Rebbe the Messiah, and the Scandal of Orthodox Indifference”. He starts out with a nice history of meshichism. Once he started blaming the ENTIRE movement and calling for denunciating of Chabad as a whole until it disowns itself from meshichism, I put the book down and never picked it up again. I actually have been in the presence of people who refuse to drink wine with a Chabad hechsher because it’s “yayin nesach”.
One can liken them to the early Judeo-Christians; to the Sabbateans; or even to those who believe that Elvis, 2Pac, Jim Morrison, or Jimmy Hoffa never died. But I ask what halakha, if any, they violate. I know that a false messiah, like a false prophet, is supposed to be put to death, but does this include those who believe in one? Why can’t we include a possible eilu v’eilu here? Unlike Shabbetai and Jesus, these meshichists are not calling for people to stop following halakha. If they were, there would be reason to actively disown them–aside from possible implications of avodah zara (which some say 770 has become).
Check the old posts for more yechi arguments. Bottom line is the Rebbe once wrote a letter that I have in a book (Letter and the spirit), specifically stating that according to the Rambam, none can call anyone moshiach until he rebuilds the beis hamikdash in it’s place. So anyone that claims to follow the Rebbe’s teachings, should adhere to this reasoning.
Very sadly, many Lubabs in big communities such as the one I live in, will gobble anything said in the name of the Rebbe. A few weeks ago, the yeshiva my kids attend had an emergency fundraising / etortion meeting with the parents. The guy in charge had the nerve to imply that the Rebbe said that each family being mosar nefesh by donating $2000 will bring moshiach. I walked out at that point.
An interesting side note on informers, apikorsim, and apostates (off the derech):
The Rambam views them as worse than gentiles, basically says they should be shoved into a pit and left there, do not have a portion in olam haba (hilchot edut, chapter 11). I doubt we can lump the yechi crowd into that category, as much as I would sometimes like to.
The Rambam does not say the beis hamikdash must be built in it’s place, but in his place, meaning moshiach. The Rebbe explains that the Beis Hamikdash is a reference to the Mikdash Me’at in Bavel, the House of the Nasi, meaning 770.
To believe in a false moshiach is definitely apikorsis. One of the Talmidim of the Node B’Yehudah was faced with an interesting shaileh that shows this. They had a Sefer Torah that was written by someone, who had been a follower of the false moshiach Shabsai Tzvi, but they did not know whether or not he wrote it while he was a follower of Shabsai Tzvi or while he was not a follower. The difference was that if he wrote it while he was a follower, then it would have a din of being a sefer torah sh’kasav bo min yisaref (A Torah that was written by an apikores must be burned). If he wrote it while he was not a follower, then it would be kosher to use. If I recall he poskined to burn it even though it was only a safek, but you see that following a false moshiach is a form of kefirah.
Almost every single opinion on this topic says that Moshiach will come from the living, not the dead. There is 1 opinion that says he can come from the dead (I forgot who). I don’t know why you would possibly want to rely on a daas yachid (lone opinion) in this situation. Even if you do rely on the daas yachid, why would the Lubavitcher Rebbe be the Moshiach over, say, Moshe Rabbeinu or the Avos or the Tannaim, Amoraim, Rishonim, etc. The Rambam writes that Rebbe Akiva new that Bar Kochba was a false Moshiach when Bar Kochba died. Meaning, death of the “moshiach” was the determining factor in knowing that he was not really the moshiach.
I love Chabad. They were mekarev me. Most of them are definitely not moshichists. I have had many conversations with them on this topic. Most regular Yeshivishe poskim consider consider regular Chabadniks to be perfectly acceptable yidin. I had Chabad witnesses at my wedding, under the presence of very significant poskim in our community. I have spoken with multiple poskim on this issue and Chabadniks are not automatically considered moshichists. The ones that are openly moshichists are highly questionable. Their exact halachic status is very questionable. I was told not to daven in a Chabad shul (non-moshichist) where the Baal Koreh was a moshichist. In many communities now Chabad has split up over this issue because the 2 points of view are incompatible with each other – and rightfully so.
sdei chemed says clearly that moshiach could come from the dead.
I am not aware of any other posek (beside ner yisroel guys & company) that proves that moshiach cannot come from the dead.
if you have any sources i would like to know.
U WANT SOME EGGSALAD IN UR FACE!!!!!!!!
were Moshiach to be Moshe Rabbeinu (which it can’t be, for his is no scion of David) or David Hamelech himself, how would you recognize him? Chazal teach that in every single generation there is a man fit to be Moshiach, someone in the generation whom every one recognizes as a great Torah scholar and of great personality.
Reread the Rambam it says when he was killed for his sins he was not moshiach.
The Lubavs who aren’t Meshichists shouldn’t be feeling any pain. The comment wasn’t directed at them, only at the ones who think the Rebbe is still alive and is Mashiach.
If these folks are like the Sabbateans or Judeo-Christians or anyone else, then eventually they’ll just be laughed off the face of mainstream and fade into a small unbelievable group of people, right? But that hasn’t exactly happened yet, and I think that’s what’s troubling. I think that the Lubavitchers who DO NOT believe these things are in a sense enabling those who do.
The rebbe was never anointed, was he? I mean, mashiach means anointed one.
Oh, and FYI: I love Chabad. Chabad on campus made me a home when I started in graduate school. I love the rabbi and his wife and their kids, and I love Chabad.org. I’m not a hater, I am just someone who had to leave a Shabbaton in Crown Heights halfway through because I was intimidated and freaked out by the rebbe being EVERYWHERE.
I have friends who are Lubavitch, I also have friends who are Lubavitch and believe the Rebbe is Moshiach. I see no way that any Jew can suggest that these people are Apikorsim. My community has ALOT of ‘anti’s’ and moshichists- both are looked down upon by the MO and Yeshivish circles. Even other chassidishe people look down on the Chabadnikim. Its really a sad situation of Sinat Chinam in my opinion. We have to learn that there are 70 ways to follow the Torah. Moreover, if you do believe Moshichists are 1,000,000 % wrong you should try to help them see truth, not simply put good people and Yiray shamayim in cherem.
WITHOUT A DOUBT Chabad is bringing the light of the Torah to multitudes of Jewish neshamas – I think that this psak was intended to distance the mainstream from a group that much of the Jewish world views as radical, but instead of accomplishing that its just reflects poorly on the institution of Chabad. It will also further the (c”v) degradation of the Rebbe himself, who some feel the need to belittle because of the mistakes of his chassidim.
By nature I’m a lover of all Jews, we need to spread Torah by showing the world the good in ourselves and trying to correct the flaws in Judaism with loving kindness and self appraisal.
Finally, I think there is also a large problem in MO and Yeshiva communities where people don’t speak about moshiach enough. This topic has become taboo in Bais Yaakovs and shuls of that nature, because it’s somehow related to being ‘misinformed’ or too ‘chassidish’. maybe the Rabbanim should address that too.
@ghottistyx, you said:
“Unlike Shabbetai and Jesus, these meshichists are not calling for people to stop following halakha.”
Your right that the meshichists aren’t calling for everyone to stop following halakha, but your premise is wrong… at least for jesus. Look at Messianics today… look at Beit Emmanuel, they have a nice mikvah. Look at FFOZ, they have built a little yeshiva and it is looking nice. They aren’t studying the scriptures from a Christian perspective, they are studying it from Rabam, Rashi, Chofetz Chaim, Akiba, etc… does that make them legit?!
If they claim someone is messiah, whether or not they keep halakha, means that they’ve removed themself from Judaism… because Messiah hasn’t been proclaimed yet. In this regard, the Meshichist and Messianics are the same.
i dont understand didnt u ever here of miyad where the rebbe says clearly that it means dovber (rebbe rashab) yosef yitschok (frierdiker rebbe) and moshiach shemenachem shmoi for all of you who learn gemmorah its pretty simple if u put the fact that the rebbes name is menachem and that the previous rebbes names were dovber and yosef yitschok, and it seems to be going down in order of lubavitch rebbes it seems pretty clear that the rebbe is referring to himself
yechi adoineinu moreinu verabeinu melch hamoshiach leolam voed
The moshichist topic really has nothing to do with sinas chinim. It’s a halachic shaileh, plain and simple. Believing in a false moshiach is apikorsis – that’s a halachaic point, not sinas chinim. Could the Rebbe be the moshiach is a matter of halacha, not sinas chinim. Are moshichists apikorsim is a halachic question for gedolei poskim to answer. I asked the question to 2 very big poskim and they both refused to answer the question because they felt it was for the gedolim only to answer, again nothing to do with sinas chinim.
When different groups with just different approaches in yiddishkeit hate each other (say, yeshivish and Tzioni and Chabad and chasidish) that is sinas chinim. But apikoris is something that we must stand firmly against.
unless u think what the rebbe said is false then there is no apikorsis and i dont think anybody will argue with me that if u disagree with the rebbe it is apikorsis
as-
s0 according to you 2 big poskim refused to answer you. when a rabbi refuses to answer it means its not such a poshut answer.
or he is ignorant in the mattter
Agreed, it’s not so pashut whether or not Lubavitch Moshichists are apikorsim, but the point was that it’s a point of halacha , not sinas chinim. And in general believing in someone that we know to be a falsh moshiach is a form of apikorsis.
pshita but the rebbe is not a false moshiach
it is sinas chinam because most people who go of on lubavitch did it also in europe and when they started kiruv and then by the tefillin campaign and by shluchim. they are a bunch haters. i curse them all that they should have lubavitcher einiklech.
yassssssssss
AMEN VIAMEN
AS,
Apikorsim are defined by the Rambam (hilchot teshuva, chapter 3) as people that deny the Torah, deny the prophets, or maintain that God is not aware of man’s actions.
Mumorim (apostates) are categorized in the same chapter as people that turn their back on Jewish observance.
Both categories are passul as witnesses, and as I previously mentioned, should be shived into a pit and not taken out according to Rambam.
Do you actually believe that the yechi rabbis that keep all or most of the other mitzvos fall into either one of these categories?
Regarding AS’s remark, the followers of Shabbtai Tzvi had other strange ideas in addition to thinking he was mesiach. Those issues would have likely been the issue at least in part in such a situation.
Thinking a certain person is mesiach when they aren’t might be ridiculous. It might be stupid. It might be crazy. But there’s nothing about it by itself that makes a believer an apikorus. Being meshuganah is not the same as being an apikorus.
There are however, somethings that some mesichistim due which are more problematic. Some of them seem to pray to the Rebbe. This is obviously not ok. But many chassidim all sorts seem to pray to dead people. So if one is a mitnagid then this all looks more or less the same. A very tiny minority of mesichistim have ideas about the Rebbe having some sort of divine essence. This is almost certainly assur and the elokistim are clearly ovdei avodah zarah. But simply believing the Rebbe is mesiach does not make on an apikorus. It is hard to argue that such a belief violates halachah. And even if such a belief does violate halachah, violating halachah by itself does not make one an apikorus.
every lubav every where (and all chassidim in gen) believe that their rebbe is moshiach, there is no argument on this. (and no contradiction in torah either) Within the lubav circle the issues lie in whether to spread this fact or not….
If G-D told you in a dream that tomrrow Moshiach would come and his name was ploni ben ploni, wwhen you woke up, wouldn’t you want to tell the whole world?
me123-
you are wrong wrong wrong and misguided. that is a meshichist lie.
Puzzled:
It’s not so much what happened beforehand…None of the content of the 13 ikarim are debated; it’s just there was some debate as to how many one had to believe in to get olam haba. Since rambam, it was pretty much accepted by all of klal yisrael and became a halacha that all 13 are now required; so that is the halacha l’masseh for klal yisrael. I am not aware of any opinion of chazal since then that say otherwise.
me123, I know many lubavitchers. I’m not generally a fan of chabad but I’ve met only a tiny fraction of them who are mesichistim. Many of them thought he might be mesiach when he was alive. But after he died they shrugged and moved on. And I’ve never, ever met a non-lubavitch chassid who thinks that the Rebbe was mesiach. Given that many chassidic groups don’t get along with the Lubavitch (the most obvious example being the long-running Satmar-Lubavitch feud) the idea that they all think that the Rebbe is mesiach is simply ridiculous.
yeshoua do teshuva u should fast for 40 days for saying such untrue things
Firstly, since when does ‘dying’ disqualify someone from being Moshiach?
Secondly, anyone who says that the Rebbe is Moshiach will automatically be classified a Lubavitcher, so how can a so-called non lubavitcher say the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Thirdly, Rabbi Solovaitchik personally signed the psak din declaring the Rebbe as Melech HaMoshiach.
I have seen the Psak in many places and want to know if it is possibe to get a copy posted in the comments for the public to see.
Some Jew, the notion that Klal Yisrael can decide halacha collectively is one thing. Are you claiming that what we decide here actually can effect what happens in the world-to-come? Does that seem either reasonable or just to you?
(Incidentally, note that being an apikorus is a distinct issue from anything related to olam habah. The Rambam thinks that someone being an apikorus has direct halachic implications in the here and now. It doesn’t have much to do with what happens in heaven)
i was saying that every chossid believes his OWN rebbe is moshiach, satmar believes their rebbe is moshiach, etc, That is the way of chassidim. unless you can prove me wrong, I dont think there is someone that would call himself a chossid and say that they dont believe their rebbe is moshiach. You can tell me all day how im wrong and lying but until you can find a real lubav that says outright ” i dont believe the rebbe is moshiach…..”
the hes not lubavitcher
why do i need to say that i dont belive cant i just not be sure. i havent heard a decent argument from either side. and i am a chossid of lubavitch.
Learn the Sichos of 5751-5752 and then say that you’re not sure. (By the way, learn every single one of them)
Why The Lubavitche Rebbe is not Mashiach
From the writings of the Rambam
1) Mashiach must to be a Navi (there is only nevuah in eretz Yisrael- the rebbe never was there). He has to be greater a navi than Avraham Avinu and less of a navi than Moshe Rabeinu.
2) Depends on results- Rabbi Akiva thought Bar Kochva was mashiach, but when he died he realized that he was not mashiach, so he moved on.
3) Mashiach will reign like a king and then die, and then his son will take over, and then his son, just like malchus beis david. The rebbe had no sons or daughters.
4) Mashiach must be a decendent from Malchus beis David paternally. The rebbe was a decendent through his father in law. His father in law was the previous rebbe.
1 is it not considered nevuah when a mother knows what to name her child im sure when ur mother gave u the name z(eah) it was a nevuah
2 the rebbe is still alive
3 how can this be if moshiach will live forever i think u misinterpreted that part of rambam and y would he die after techiyas hameisim
4 first of all the rebbe comes from the tsemach tsedeks oldest son reb baruch shalom (this is on the rebbes fathers side reb levi yitschok). the tsemach tsedeks father and mother both came from david hamelech i know this to be true because the tsemach tsedek is my grandfather as well
1) Where does it say that Nevuah is only in Eretz Yisroel?
2) The reason Bar Kochba waas disqualified as the Moshiach is because his mission (in his generation) was to tdefeat the Romans. Since he was KILLED (and perforce failed in his mission, because the romans killed him), his Dor was obviously not fit for Moshiach.
The Rebbe’s mission was to bring Yidden closer to Yiddishkeit, and spread the news of the Redemption, and ultimately redeem the Yiddin. his ‘passing’ has not halted his mission in the least
Joshua,
See my previous post where I said none of chazal since rambam dispute it which is enough to say it is accepted defacto by klal yisrael.
Regarding Olam haba–see Rambam’s 24 categories of people (M.T. Tshuva 3:6f) denied olam habah—the apikorsum/koferiem are clearly part of that list.
its ok to be not sure if the rebbe is alive or not , thats the whole reason for fighting in lubavitch!!!! but for a chossid to say hes not sure if his rebbe is moshiach , could mean one of 2 things, either he didnt learn, or hes not bottul to his rebbe……
yyyyyaaaaaassssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss
me123 , that’s simply ridiculous. Most chassidim don’t believe that. Many might think that their rebbes have potential but that’s a separate claim (and there have been chassidic rebbes who have been kohanim. They can’t possibly be mesiach)
And many lubavitchers have said outright that they don’t think the Rebbe is mosiach.
then they cant be lubavitchers
and they haven’t learnt a word of what the Rebbe, Chazal, the neviim etc. have said
Some Jew, so then are you claiming that minhag klal Yisrael can decide who gets olam habah?
me123
so your calling me not a chossid because you have learnt so much chassidus. you have no understanding of a connection of a chossid to his rebbe especially in lubavitch which was always different than the poilisher.
z
number 4 is not true, he is a descendant paternally. so i have to diqualify evrithing u say as being doubtfull unless i look it up and i dont have patience for that at the moment.
The Rebbe said clearly he is a descendent of Dovid Hamelech.
You say you have no patience for truth so in essence you are saying you are here to fight.
Also Joshua,
Rambam concludes the 13 articles with:
“And when the person will believe all these fundamentals and his faith will be clear in them he enters into the nation of Israel and it is a mitzva to love him and to have mercy on him and to act to him according to all the ways in which God commanded us regarding loving your neighbor. And even if he did all of the sins in the Torah due to desire of the emotions, and from his physical aspect’s conquering him, he will be punished for his sins, but he still has a share in the world to come and is among the sinners of Israel. However if he rejects one of these fundamentals he leaves the nation and is a denier of the fundamentals and is called a heretic, a denier, etc., and it is a mitzva to hate him and to destroy him (financially – not physically to kill him. And not to steal either). And regarding him it is said (Psalms 139) “Behold will not the enemy of God be my enemy?””
fakewood, all claims of descent to the Davidic dynasty for pretty much everyone are at best questionable.
In any event, the rest of m123’s list isn’t so off although I get the impression that #3 is more of an idea that Rambam had that most others don’t think. The other issue is that Rambam more or less thinks that someone can only be a potential mesiach. According to him, we only conclude that some is mesiach if they do everything they were supposed to.
A Chossid believes his Rebbe. The Rebbe Rashab (the fifth Lubavitcher Rebbe) unequivocally stated that all the Rebbeim (including the Tzemach Tzedek) where ben lben to David hamelech.
I can give you name after name to the GRA who has said he is from Rashi who is from Dovid Hamelech so if you dont beleive the GRA maybe we should not count YOU as a frum Jew.
Some, that doesn’t answer the fundamental question. Do you think that minhag klal Yisrael decides who gets olam habah and who does not?
I think people are missing the point. Chabad as a movement, on both sides of the aisle believe that the rebbe was an incarnation of moshe rabainu. Just like when moshe spoke it was G-d speaking from his throat, similarly with all 7 rabbeim.
Our rebbe stated that we were the last generation, the seventh is the generation of moshiach.
So you ask, does believing that the rebbe is moshiach constitute apikursus?? Clearly these people dont fit into the same category as those who followed shabsai tzvi, for 2 reasons. 1) the rebbe was never disproven as a candidate for moshiach and 2) It doesnt say anywhere that moshiach must be from the living, rambam says he has to have affected the majority of jews of the current generation, which the rebbe clearly did … theres no solid proof that moshiach cant die b4hand.
The fact is that all this talk of apikursus is apikursus, theres no solid proof of any of the following is apikursus
– believing that your rebbe is moshiach
– believing that moshiach can be from the dead
– believing that the rebbe was the moshe rabianu of our generation
All you are doing is making false assumptions and trying to hang a large part of lubavitchers on it.
emes emes emes
Joshua,
Since it is the halacha, yes
MG, so now incorrectly someone saying someone else is an apikorus makes the first person an apikorus? That’s going to probably make pretty much everyone an apikorus. The bottom line is that disagreeing about halacha doesn’t make one an apikorus.
Now, as to the rest of your comment, if you are relying on on Rambam, Rambam explicitly says that the mesiach needs to be a military leader. So, um yeah. Moreover, your comparison to Shabbtai Tzvi is ill-informed. One could just as well try to make the same claims about him. It isn’t at all clear how he was “disproved” the real problem with his followers was the other beliefs they adopted.
Incidentally, thinking that anyone other than Moshe has the status of Moshe Rabeinu really is apikorsus.
apikorsus and the rebbe headed tsivos hashem so he was a war leader
The Zohar clearly states there is an extension of Moshe in ever generation.
Perhaps you are so wise that you can call R’ Shimon Bar Yochai an apikorus!!!
Joshua,
All chassidim think their rebbe is the “nossi” of the generation, just as in the yeshivot of bavel, each thought their Rosh Yeshiva was “the man”, sometimes even thought he was mashiach.
Point is that most of you are misusing the word apikores, as per the Rambam’s definition I listed above.
At most, you might be able to call the yechi guys “am haaretz”, however I know of a few dayanim that are yechi followers. Other than the yechi thing, these guys have more halachic knowledge in the findernail than all the readers of this site combined.
As much as I can’t stand the yechi movement and am forced to listen to some of the “nutjobs” spewing their brand of reality, I don’t have any ill feelings towards them, nor do I doubt their sincerity or devotion when it comes to other aspects of religion.
Most yechis are very militant and vocal about the beliefs, which is why people tend to think all lubabs are messianic Jews. If the Anti yechis were as vocal, people would know better.
It’s knid of like the blacks. People see rappers gloryfying crime, grugs, etc., then tend to lump all blacks into the same stereotype. Why? Because they are the most vocal / noticible faction. Just because a rapper wears his pants around his ankles, does that mean that Obama does too?
Phil, saying someone is a nosi is distinct from claiming that they function like Moshe. I agree that much of this thread isn’t using the term apikorus as Rambam would use it. It seems like many people use it to mean “beliefs I don’t like.”
MG, and the fact that the Rebbe can in fact be wrong doesn’t matter (despite his deification)? I haven’t heard many others warning us that this is the end generation, nor and indicators of it. When this generation passes by, because we are clearly no where near ready for moshiach, what will chabadniks say? Jesus said that he would return in the lifetime of his followers (then concocted reasons for his delay, claiming a generation ment more than his lifetime, etc), and the xtians are still waiting. Same will happen for Chabadniks who understood that lhavdil the Rebbe was going to resurrect immediately as Moshiach.
In 40 years, I guarantee we’re only going to see more Christianized yechi Chabad understanding of why the Rebbe failed to resurrect from the dead as Moshiach.
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Those who believe the rebbe is moshiach are crazy, not apikorsim.
Arguably, people who believe yeshiva should not include secular education are also crazy.
ur name says it all
offthederech,
just wondering about that last line….
you do know that the rebbe was a big advocate for that… is he crazy?
just wondering.
Dude,
Here we go again with misquoting the Rebbe. He said that it’s preferrable for kids to wait until 9 years old to start secular studies, would love to see one person show me where is supposedly said it’s forbidden.
Lubavitch yeshivas (Tomchei Tmimim) all offer some sort of secular program, even if they are optional and of the lowest possible caliber. I personally got fed up with this and some other issues this year, and my kids are switching scools for next year.
There’s nothing wrong with thinking your Rebbe is Moshiach. That is, until he dies and you still think so. Then you’re not only wrong, but also plain nuts.
until he dies …………………………….
There is a difference between believing that the Rebbe is still alive (- and btw there is such a concept that Tzadikim still keep Mitvahs after they pass away, hence some believing that He is alive to an extent), and believing that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
I’m gonna stop right here, coz it’s late and I don’t have time to write more now….
@joshua
believing that the soul of moshe rabainu manifest itself throughout the generations is fine, mordechai has that soul, and so do the rabeim according to chabad doctrine … or atleast thats what ive been brainwashed to believe, where does it say otherwise??
I’m not a crazy, but i can appreciate where they are coming from … you sort of have to learn a slew of sichas and maamarim to even begin to see whats going on, its very insolent to wholesale ignore the rebbe just because you heard that a few people think that he’s alive (and they are talking metaphorically anyways)
i could just see heshy becoming a big lub
1. All those who believe that the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe was G-d, a manifestation of G-d, or in any way omniscient or omnipotent are memushad l’avoda zara. They worship false idols. Their shechita cannot be used. Their Torah scrolls have no kedusha. Luckily, not very many people are like this. Unluckily, most chassidim of all sorts believe that their Rebbes are very holy. This is problematic, as most Orthodox Jews have no patience for god-men, but this is more related to the Mitnaged-Chassidic split in the times of the Vilna Gaon than the issue at hand. I’m uncomfortable with some aspects of chassidus, but right now we will ignore it.
2. All those who believe that the Rebbe did not die are being foolish. All evidence points to his death. Uncertainty regarding his death relates more to the nature of knowledge than any solid proof. Foolishless is not heresy, but it reflects badly on the person. It is analogous to belief that Elvis was alive. You would think less of someone that told you that Elvis was still alive. Similarly, those that believe the 7th Lubavitcher Rebbe to be alive are foolish, and thus not to be trusted with leadership positions.
3. Those that believe that the Rebbe is dead but may be resuscitated as the Moshiach run into theological issues. Simply put, the Moshiach must start and finish the geula. The Rambam says that there are many things a person can do so that we can (without being foolish) consider them the Moshiach, but if they die they are to be considered one of the many righteous Kings of the Davidic line. Those who persist in believing that the deceased is the Messiah are going astry.
ill keep my ”avodah zora” and bring moshiach closer everyday and u stay in galus where ur obviously very happy
The main Dr. after the Rebbe;s heart attack impersonally told me that when the Rebbe spoke the first Maamar after the heart attack he flat lined which would seemingly mean he was talking as a dead man. obviously what Dr.s see isn’t necessarily correct.
One of the main things which separates Judaism from Catholicism is that we believe every Jew is holy and there aren’t different levels of us in our connection to Hashem. While our rebbeim are more learned than we are and we go to them for shaylos, there’s nothing per se which they can do and we can’t.
That being said, unfortunately we all have today elevated our rebbeim to a Pontiff-like level where they are infallable and can do no wrong. Hence the cover-ups of all the sex abuses and other crimes commited…
Today every group views their leader in such a light. Whether it’s a chassideshe rebbe or a litvishe rosh yeshiva, it’s hard to find a group that deep down does not look up to their leader in such a way; Chabad happens to be the most outspoken.
While it’s easy to knock these Moshiachniks, we should realize that (1) we don’t know for sure who Moshiach is and (2) we’re all the same with our own rebbeim.
Let’s continue doing whatever we do but respect those with different viewpoints. Then will Moshiach come and sort everything out!
if u have ever learned tanya u would know there is a difference in some peoples levels
Tanya chapter 2
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/7881/jewish/Chapter-2.htm
thank u thank u Chanief //
i must have read 300 – 500 comments from this and other sites
your comment hit it right on the head
as they say
BINGO
“It’s knid of like the blacks. People see rappers gloryfying crime, grugs, etc., then tend to lump all blacks into the same stereotype. Why? Because they are the most vocal / noticible faction. Just because a rapper wears his pants around his ankles, does that mean that Obama does too?”-Phil
Thanks for dispelling a streotype that has plagud the African American Community for years.By the way not all of us likes fried chicken and watermellon either.
@Tevye
As I finished submitting my last comment I realized a major flaw in my argument: there is a different between Christianity as proposed by St. Paul (nee Saul of Tarsus) and the actual beliefs of Yeshua himself. Indeed, many of his immediate followers were probably following halakhic Judaism to some extent. In fact, it is my understanding that Judeo-Christianity professed to be a form of Judaism that only believed in Yeshua being the Messiah. Of course, most of my knowledge of these proto-Christians comes from Milton Steinberg’s historic fiction “As a Driven Leaf”, so it may well be inaccurate.
I’m not directly familiar with either FFOZ or Beit Emmanuel, so I looked them up. Sounds like several ‘meshulachs’ I’ve argued with, including one who was reasonably versed in Tanach (able to hold his own against me), but woefully ignorant in the Ramban and his dispute at Barcelona. Most of our arguments ended with me encouraging him to read the Dispute at Barcelona.
I guess the tough question is whether these guys are any worse off than the meshicists. That even if one was shomer halakha otherwhise, would it matter if they believed that either The Rebbe or Yeshua was Messiah? Yeshua is a tougher area, as most people who believe in him are NOT shomrei halakha, and indeed his name is associated with myriads of attrocities against our people over the years. Thus, it is easier to convince a frum Jew to accept Menachem Mendel Schneerson as a Moshiach than Yeshua. But the issue with Yeshua is more circumstantial; it’s less about Yeshua himself and more about what his followers did with his teachings.
how dare a person as low as you compare the rebbe to yoshke yemachshemoi and then u have the CHUTSPAH to say the rebbes name
BTW, ghottistyx, you might want to read “James, Brother of Jesus” by Robert Eisenman, and “The Dead Sea Scrolls Deception” by Baigent and Leigh. While there is disagreement on the accuracy of the time line believed by those three authors, they have a lot of interesting ideas. While the first book contains more references to the so-called new testament (NT) than you may care to chase down, both books are worth reading. It is my belief that virtually the entire Xian story is a complete fairy tale, and that the character in their story called Jesus simply never existed, not as portrayed. The real Yoshke was almost surely a Jewish nationalist, a strict observer of Halacha including the chumros of his own group, and the physical brother of James. He had other siblings, including a twin brother, who is referred to by the goyim as Thomas. After Yoshke’s execution by the Romans, Paul, who was perhaps related to Herod, became James’ chief Jewish opponent. Paul was probably an agent of the Romans. His purpose in life was to subvert Joshke’s (and James’) Jewish nationalist movement. He was successful. The reason we never blew the whistle on him (when there were still people around who knew the history) was that our spiritual (and probably physical) ancestors were the Yochanan ben Zakkai crowd, who were on the opposite side of the fence(s) dividing Jews.
The actual Yoshke is probably best compared to Rabbi Akiva – very popular, thought by some to be potential Moshiach, and dead before successful. Seems to fit the present discussion.
One more point related to this meshugas:
All Jews that daven 3 times a day are Moshiachnicks or Meshichists.
The clowns that proclaim that the Rebbe is still alive and/or moshiach should be reffered to by another term. I prefer yechis or yechi people, others prefer idiot, jackass, etc.
To call them meshichists is an insult to the religion and to those that believe in moshiach,
obviously you dont daven to know that all jews do daven 3 times a day even snags lehavdil
both meshichist and anti are apikorsim: at a farbrengen of either the ratio of mention of the rebbe to that of god is on the order of 500 to 1
what would the rebbe want
do x mitzva for the rebbe
vos tustu farn rebbe
etc….
Tzadikim LO Meis— Righteous people never die.
Therefore, that includes the REBBE, the Vilna Gaon, King David, Moshe, etc… Also, Rashi. There was a Yechi movement for Rashi after his passing. Nothing is new here. Don’t be afraid of this idea in Judaism just because other religions adopted and distorted it later.
Yaakov lo meis. Does that mean that he was embalmed and buried alive? I think not.
The idea is a spiritual one, i.e. the tzadik’s spirit and legacy lives on even when they pass away.
The Or Hachaim says Yaakov never physically died and proves it from the Pesukim.
@Ob server: Thanx. I shall bump those up my already long reading list. I’ve come across a few interesting ones myself that make The DaVinci Code look like a veritable source. My favorite is the one about 10 different people named Yeshua who lived over a 200 year period. If indeed he was a student of R. Yehoushua ben Perachya, he would have lived at least 100 BCE. Even the so-called “brit chaddash” is unclear whether he was born in Bethlehem, Nazareth, or what. Some accounts would have him a pure Gallilean, others would have it that he failed in Judea so ended up moving to Gallilee. Either way, the so-called “brit chaddash” is clearly a very unreliable historic source. Much scholarship has been devoted to the cannonization of the Gospels, and this is hardly the venue to discuss that.
I will say this. Anything beats The Gospel of Mel Gibson. I mean Rachmanu Nitzlan if this is the way the story is actually taught to anyone. I guess my biggest problem with it is that he takes the time to humanize Yeshua, Shimon (Peter), Pontius Pilate, and even Judas Iscariot, but the character of Caephus the Kohen Gadol is simply treated as a vitriolic a-hole purely acting out of spite. Based on what we do know about Yeshua, he spent a good deal of his energy scorning the hypocrisy of the Kohanim at the time (who were mostly Tzedukim), so based on that one could see why Yeshua was a political enemy of Caephus…I see him as a man whose real message was “Avodas Hashem does not have to be painful.” If not for St. Paul et al, he may well have even been a precursor to the Besh’t…how unfortunate that his message ended up being completely distorted as it was.
how could u be reading goyish literture and then quote it have u no shame
someone help me out and tell me where it says that moshiach cannot be dead before he is revealed … It clearly that tzadikim will have tchias hamesim instantly, and eliyahu is the person who will let everyone know that moshiach has arrived ..
logically if the time of moshiach come sand the tzaddikim rise from the dead, if moshiach is one of those tzadikkim he will reveal himself as such and will lead the jews to israel etc etc.
pray tell, show me a jewish source that this timeline is inaccurate.
(note: personally not a mishechist, but im having trouble seeing that their beliefs are against torah)
I didn’t read the comments but want to correct your post title. The psak you’re referring to is referring to those that believe the Rebbe is alive and kicking bguf gashmi as apikorsim.
He then goes on to blast the idea of moshiach min hameisim and explain that this idea is incorrect. But not apikorsus. Nobody holds that. That’s a very important difference.
chosid, so moshiach min hemeisim is not halachically incorrect??
It disturbs me that its been thrown out as a blanket idiocy, not because i believe the whole mishechist thing, but because the rebbe clearly stated that his father in law was moshiach when he was no longer alive.
To worry that some mishechistim are apikursim is not my concern, but that the rebbe made such a blatent mistake is a bit problematic …
who are u to say the rebbe made a mistake NO it is u who are mistaken and ur mind is a bit problematic
belief is in the heart
close your eyes do you think the Rebbe is Moshiach
I think yes
and I hope Moshiach comes very soon!
melch melech melech harabi milubavitch melech melech melech melech chay vekayom guf gashmi
lubavitcher please email me at mendyschoenes@gmail.com. I am a strong beleiver the Rebbe is melech Hamoshiach.
The bigger problem is to suggest the possibility the Rebbe made a mistake. Don’t attribute your lack of understanding to the Rebbe. There is more than one way to be alive.
THE REEBE IS MOSIACH IF YOU DON@T LIKE IT YOU COULD SUCK MY KOSHER LOLLY POP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaaaaaaaaaasssssssssssssssssssssss
yyyyyyyyyyyyyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeettttttttttttthhhhhhhhhhhhh
Bottom line is… there is NOTHING today like chabad… what the Lubavitch Rebbe Accomplished for world jewry NOBODY even comes close.
BT Mishichist writes:
THE REEBE IS MOSIACH IF YOU DON@T LIKE IT YOU COULD SUCK MY KOSHER LOLLY POP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BT,
You may be a BT, and you may be a meshichist, but I find it hard to believe that you are a Lubavitcher chosid. You do not sound like any Lubavitcher I have ever heard.
Love Chabad,
Let’s not exagerate. Can you actually say that he accomplished more than Avraham Avinu, Moshe Rabbeinu, Yehoshua, David Shlomo, the tanaim, amoraim, rishonim, acharonim?
I belive the Rebbe was the greatest Tzaddik I ever met, and I did so on numerous occasions. That doesn’t mean he was the greatest tzaddik that ever lived.
People that share your beliefs are a major part of the problem. You are closed minded, live in a box and don’t know anything about other Jews!
Do you actually expect or think that you idea is fact or unanimous throughout worldwide Jewry?
Phil, you’re the best.
Moses took the Jewish people out of Egypt.
The Rebbe did not, neither did Yeshu.
My main problem with Lubavitch is that there is a Mitzva to study Torah day and night. I see Lubavitch who study things that are not Torah, and teach things that are not Torah.
Essays of Rabbi Shneerson digress from what we are supposed to learn, namely, Halacha and Torah. There is too much emphasis on the esoterical, and not enough emphasis on the practical.
If you are studying all about Mashiach every single minute of every day, then you will not be able to study practical Halacha.
HOW DARE U PUT THE REBBE IN THE SAME SENTENCE AS ***** IT WONT SUPRISE WHEN U BURN
please tell me do yo waist time?
also when moshiach comes will you know the halachos?
One of the rabbis I took classes from told a story one time. A Jew who wasn’t well-learned was on a plane sitting next to an Xtian who was preaching to him. There was a learned Jew somewhere in earshot. Finally, he couldn’t take it anymore. So, he went to the Xtian and told him that Yashka wasn’t the moshiach, Bar Kochba was. The Xtian argued back that Bar Kochba couldn’t be the moshiach because he’s dead and we still don’t have the third Temple. The learned Jew pointed out the similarity and went back to his seat.
Love Chabad, Theodore Herzl and David ben Gurion each accomplished more for the Jewish people than Menachem Schneerson could have ever hoped to.
WITH SUCH A LACK OF RESPECT FOR THE REBBE I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT U ARE PROBABLY A MAMZER WHO IS PISSED AT THE FACT THAT UR NOT PART OF THE JEWISH SOCIETY ENTIRELY SO U DECIDED TO SHMAD JUST REMEMBER A.NURAD ITS NEVER TO LATE TO DO TESHUVA
Nope. Not a mamzer, not pissed (except at the human capacity for delusion and stupidity) and not envious. Thank you for playing.
A. Nuran,
If you are younger than I, you will see that you are mistaken. If you were smarter than I, you wouldn’t even have to be younger.
The same Herzl who wanted to have all the Jews convert r’l? The same atheist ben gurion who ok’d the haganah’s firing upon the altalena? They did more than the biggest talmid chochom, true yiddishe manhig and ohev yisroel of our generation?
Yes, they did.
They actually helped Jews in the real world. They created a place where, however tenuously, Jews are not in the ghetto. They helped make a place where we don’t live at another’s sufferance.
So yes, Observer, I guess I must be smarter than you.
The late Lubavitcher Rebbe made a lot of pronouncements. But he couldn’t even keep his sect together after his death. His self-agrandizing and oh-so-coy “The Rebbe doesn’t deny that he might be the prospective Messiah” and “He announced that the time of Moshiach is just about at hand” fantasies kept the Lubavitchers from planning for his inevitable demise. In effect, he single-handedly destroyed the continuity of one of the largest branches of Chassidim to feed a delusion.
He was a wonderful scholar and by all reports a devout and spiritual person. But let’s be real here. The survival of Jews lies in our ability to keep a place in the real world where we can survive. Our safety and continuity do not lie solely in navel-gazing and betting that Moshiach will come and make it all better. They come from hard work in this life to make sure Jews are safe, secure, educated and acknowledge reality.
“Our safety and continuity do not lie solely in navel-gazing and betting that Moshiach will come and make it all better. They come from hard work in this life … ”
hooray! 🙂
Quick question:Does anyone know how much a shliach gets paid from Lubavich headquarters(I doubt they do it for free)?
Now a days many shluchim get paid at the begining then have to fundraise from there to even put food on the table.
Curious,
As far as I heard, they used to get a small insubstantial amount for the first year or two, then they are on their own.
Basically they are somewhere between a franchise and owner operator. They raise funds that go directly to them, I don’t think they kick anything back to HQ in 770.
The funds pay for all thei activities, shuk expenses, salaries, etc.
I meant shul expenses….
A. Nuran,
You wrote, “So yes, Observer, I guess I must be smarter than you.”
Well, regarding Israel, I hope so. However, it appears to me that BG’s legacy was an Israel without a solid foundation, an Israel that exists at the sufferance of the United States. The physical facts, in my opinion, do not dictate these circumstances. Rather, they are a result of BG’s failed ideology. G-d willing, the results will not be seen before my death. G-d willing, you are smarter than I and those results will not be seen at all. If you outlive me, you will see what you will see, and perhaps you will know.
You wrote, “But he couldn’t even keep his sect together after his death.”
I’m not sure what you mean by sect, but if you are referring to Lubavitchers as a group, they seem to be quite a together group. The shlichus of the Rebbe carries on just as though he were alive, which is additional evidence of his leadership. The breadth of Chabad influence continues to grow. That this has been happening even as Israel is excoriated by the nations and encouraged to cooperate in its own downfall by the U. S. is what prompted me to note the comparison between BG and the Rebbe.
Curious,
You wrote, “Quick question:Does anyone know how much a shliach gets paid from Lubavich headquarters(I doubt they do it for free)?’
I believe that the answer is “Yes.” To further elaborate, the amount is zip. Zilch. Nada. 770 doesn’t pay shluchim. Typically, I believe, a shaliach will shnorr enough from one person or another (usually a number of people) to support him for about a year. In that year, it’s up to him to figure out how to eat and do outreach at the same time. Although Chabadniks always put outreach ahead of fundraising, there are usually local people who can figure out that it takes money to have a shul and activities and a rabbi with a family. These people are sometimes called Friends of Lubavitch, and may or may not be regular attenders at the local religious services. Regardless, anyone who takes advantage of what Chabad offers should be aware that most shluchim have a constant struggle with finances, and 770 is NOT providing financial support.
there are certain funds individuals have set up thrugh the years to help shluchim in the first year.
Well I’d say thats pretty daring.I mean going somewhere like North Dakota while not knowing if youll raise enough funds to keep it going.Has any chabad house ever gone bust?If they do does 770 have an emergency relief fund ?
I think that Heshy is the Moshiach.
Anouther question.If they are not getting funding what stops someone from opening thier own independant chabad house,also if they don’t get funding who says they will stay true to the teachings of the rebbe,if it’s their own place chances are they will run it thier own way?
Curious,
I am a newcomer, and I know of two that have folded. I suspect that there have been others. I’m not sure why you think that 770 would fund attempts that have already failed , when they didn’t fund others, but I have never heard of one, which, of course, doesn’t prove anything.
Not sure what you mean by an independent Chabad house. I think that they are ALL independent, to the extent that you can say that a chosid is independent from his rebbe. I also am not sure what you mean by all your ifs. I told what little I know, and it is starting to become clear that you know even less than I do about the relationship between a chosid and his rebbe. There’s no if on whose place each one is, and I’m sure that in each case the owner is running it the way he believes the Rebbe would want.
You somehow have it stuck in your head that “770” runs all the Chabad Centers, and it isn’t true, no matter what your reasons are for believing it. This is not to say that they are not all singing the same tune. They are, and they have annual meetings. But the relationship is voluntary, and is based on a common motivation. The influence of the Rebbe lives, and will grow just as if he were alive. Watch and see.
It’s just very shocking to me that a rabbi will volentarily not only work for free,but raise his own funds.I mean with the work these guys do Im sure they could make a lot more money being a pulpit rabbi or torah teacher.what’s their motivation?
Their motivation is that there’s a job to be done and nobody else is willing to do it. A lifetime of learning chasidus will make mesirus nefesh to ratzon Hashem as taught by the Rebbe to be second nature. For a chosid [not me] the instructions of the Rebbe are just as important as a mitzvah doraisa. Doing chitas daily is just as important as putting on tefillin. The only difference is how and when they came down.
Curious,
Most states have a rabbi in charge, any new Chabad in the state has to go through him first.
The rabbi ensures that each gets their “own” district or group to target, so they don’t have to step on each other’s toes.
I do know of some “rebel” chabad houses that bipassed the system, they are generally shunned by all other Chabads in the area.
Why would someone want to run a “rebel chabad house”.Unless they were mishichist or elocust?Maybe cracked BT chabadniks who have a load of money,a passion for shlichus, but did not get the proper shliach education at 770?
Curious,
You wrote “Why would someone want to run a “rebel chabad house”.Unless they were mishichist or elocust?Maybe cracked BT chabadniks who have a load of money,a passion for shlichus, but did not get the proper shliach education at 770?”
One that I know of existed long before the Rebbe passed away. The rebel had a lot of money, and was as qualified as anyone else, but he didn’t have permission as described by Phil above, and he has been more or less outcaste as a result. I’m sure that this seems rather strange to you in terms of what his motivation might be. It does to me, too, and to others closer to his background. Nevertheless, he seems to be a sane person. I’m sure that if you heard his reasons, they would sound much better than what I could make up.
I would like to point out something to those who compared Mishichistim to the followers of Shabbatai Tzvi and Jesus.
There is a fundamental difference between the groups. Shabbatai Tvi and Jesus proclaimed themselves to be the Messiah and gathered followers.
The Lubavitcher Rebbe never claimed to be the Moshiach. Anything the meshichistim say, they’ve come to on their own. Additionally, one may not call the Rebbe an apikores for this reason, because he was not the instigator.
Unfortunately, the Rebbe did not have the foresight to predict that this messianic movement would arise, claim him as Messiah, and tear Chabad apart.
In my opinion, it would have been better to appoint an Eighth Rebbe, and continue having successor rebbes until Moshiach comes.
Since when does gathering followers mean anything? Yidden follow Halacha. the christian bastard cannot be moshiach for the reasns given by the Rambam, laws of Kings, Chapter 11:4, the unscensored version.
Shabbsai Tzvi tried changing Mitzvos
Just to keep the record straight, do you have any credible evidence that some guy named Jesus said he was our Moshiach, or are you relying on the fairy tale which the Xians call the “new testament?”
after all this im sure u have come to terms that the rebbe is moshiach and chai vekayom so in unison with all of you let us sing loud and joyful yechi adoneinu moreinu verabeinu melech hamoshiach leolam voed
At least you didn’t say “boreinu”, so I guess I can tolerate you
Some things aren’t assur because they are assur. Some things are assur because they are stupid and it is assur to be stupid
– Rav Soloveitchik
modern orthodox
With all due respect to Rabbi Soloveitchik, I think this is a very misleading thing to say.How do you define “stupid”.What is stupid in America might not be stupid in Canada.What one community finds stupid another one may not.Heck,”stupid” can be understood differently by 2 different people from the same family or community.”stupid” too subjective to be defined in objective terms.I find it very hard how he could make such a statement to the masses, without everyone stepping on each others toes.Unless I’m missing something, tell me what you think.
Example:BT asks rabbi:”wow!! After learning all the laws of judism I find it virtually impossable to lead a normal life.I feel I must strilize myself from society and live far away from civilization in order to live a kosher life.The rabbi answers:”Don’t do that that’s stupid and stupid is assur”.How intelligent does that sound!!
I personally believe(I might be wrong) there is no serious communities in America that follow the shulchan aruch precisly.(i.e.did you know that all shuls must have 12 windows?a special prayer to when you enter and leave a shul,the mitzvah of saying tikkun chatzos and MANY MANY MORE ayin sham)if you go to Israel you will find some serious communties here and there.
Observer,
I don’t know about the rest of them but, as someone who used to be in the other religion, the NT is weak. Most of the incidents involving J, he was essential giving a devar Torah type speech. There is one spot where he says he is Hashem’s son, leaving it open to interpret as son, like we are all children of Hashem.
The NT is extremely vague and all over the place. Much of the interpretation is passed down orally. There are not even hints in writing to support these interpretation.
Whereas, much of what’s in our Oral Tradition is hinted at in the Written Torah.
A,
The Shulchan Aruch is Rabbinic, not Torah/Talmud, rabbinic…
I am the specimen you are talking about. I am a Lubavitcher. I went to the Yeshivos, go to Farbrengens, etc, etc.
I believe that Moshiach is coming very soon, because that’s what the Rebbe told us. Before Gimmel Tammuz I was sure that it would be the Rebbe. Now it is not very relevant to me, as long as he comes. Do I believe it could be the Rebbe? Yes, but it doesn’t HAVE to be.
I try to do all the Mitzvos just like any other Jew should. No, I don’t believe in any sort of “divinity” in a human being (ch’v), and I have yet to see or hear (a reliable report) of any single Lubavitcher that does! Totally absurd! There is no such thing as an “Elokist” belief (please don’t quote me from mentally ill people) of any kind. This is a flat out libel (and the people who are guilty of perpetuating/repeating this libel are guilty of perhaps the worst form of motzi shem ra possible).
I have been around “meshichistin”. There is absolutely no compromise on Halacha in any way, on the contrary, many of them are also fanatical in their observance of Halacha, and not just their beliefs about Moshiach. Sorry to burst your bubble, but believing that you know the name of Moshiach and you know what he will look like, and that person is a Tzadik who has passed, does not make you a “kofer” in any way. Any example of belief in a false messiah which led people astray involved violating Halacha in one way or another.
On the “divinity” issue again. It so happens, that in the frum world, the average Lubavitcher is likely to have a better understanding on the significance and importance of Achdus Hashem. “Ein Od Milvado” is a phrase that rolls off the tongue of every Lubavitcher. Chabad Chassidus goes into great depth about this concept (of course this is all over Judaism, but in Chassidus it is taught to even greater depth and explanation). Thus, it is the height of absurdity to even think that Lubavitchers would ascribe divinity to their rebbe (ch’v). It pains me greatly to hear these libels because I know how ridiculous they are.
What apparently it comes down to, is old sina against Lubavitch, which in our times has a great target: the Moshiach issue. Obviously many people (including many of the commentators here) are innocent bystanders just trying to understand what is right and what is wrong.
May the Geulah come speedily!
To question or discuss the greatness of Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson is impossible for someone who never had multiple in depth discussions with him, or is COMPLETELY AND THOROUGHLY familiar with ALL his writings. There have been instances in jewish history where do to a misunderstanding a staunch position was taken and then retracted, (RAMBAM’s Moreh Nevuchim and Rabbeinu Jonah Ben Abraham).
However for people to call a DEAD person moshiach, is a direct and absolute contradiction to halachic judaism. Its not just a question of apikoris, but also of a kofer b’torah, ovaid avodah zorah berabim and choteh u’machtee es horabim.
The question is can you trust their hashgachos, eat their meat or drink their wine, which is not permissible for someone is ovaid avodah zorah.
The Rambam does not say that if he (the Moshiach Candidate) dies he cannot be Moshiach.
The Rebbe is a prophet.
david, the Menachem Schneerson may have been a great man, a wise leader and a distinguished legal scholar. He currently is a handful of dust and some old dry bones.
A Prophet? He didn’t make verifiable predictions all of which were completely correct. And I don’t mean ones along the lines of “Our redemption will happen sometime” or “The tide will go out within a day.” That’s the strict Torah standard for a Prophet.
Moshiach? Look at the Rambam’s standards. Scheerson didn’t even come close to being either of the Moshiachs aside from wishful thinking on the part of his followers.
A Nuran, i think that you are mistaken here. The Rebbe made thousands of predictions which all came true. His most famous ones are probably about the six day war in 67 where he was the only person who predicted a Jewish victory. Also in 91 he said that Israel is safe and not to go out of the land. Also he was the only person to predict the downfall of communism. Besides he said in a public gathering that there is a prophet in our generation. Any person who’s thoughts are not clouded understands that the Rebbe was saying that he is a prophet according to Jewish law. The Rambam says that a Jewish Prophet once proven to be so should not be tested too much any more and that all he says should be believed. The only thing left of the Rebbe’s prophesies to be fully fulfilled is that Moshiach will come in complete actuality and redeem the Jewish people as well as the whole world from exile.
1. Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn tz”l, known as, ‘The Rebbe,’ was NOT the Moshiach.
Those who erroneously believe him to be the Moshiach that Am Yisrael is waiting for today, are bordering on Christianity, and committing the grave sin of Avodah Zarah, Idolatry.
Idolatry is forbidden in the Torah, and is the Second of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Similarly in the case of Breslov with Rav Nachman tz”l.
2. There should be NO MEDIATOR between a person’s tefillot and Hashem.
If a person chooses to use intercession instead of praying directly to Hashem, this is completely Assur.
If the leaders of Chabad encouraged people to use the “Igrot” – including Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, tz”l – they were wrong. Using the Igrot is using intercession. Similarly the practices of
(1) “reading out the Igrot request to a PICTURE of Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l” is direct Avodah Zarah. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem.
(2) sending faxes to the Bet HaChaim should be stopped immediately.
(3) Praying directly to the Tzaddik at the Bet HaChaim is wrong. It causes tremendous tsaar to the neshamah of the Tzaddik in Shamayim. We pray only to Hashem – directly ourselves. NO mediator is permitted.
These practices are abhorrent and against the Torah. They are assur and forbidden, and should all be stopped.
If the tzaddik advised that people do this in his lifetime – he was wrong. And this must be corrected. Speedily.
TESHUVAH to Hashem should be done speedily instead – by the whole of the Chabad organisation especially. The whole of the Chabad organisation is currently all refusing to do Teshuvah. Similarly in the case of Breslov, with those who go Uman to pray directly to the Tzaddik – instead of directly to Hakadosh Baruch Hu.
The Torah cannot be mixed with Avodah Zarah. This is twisting the Torah, and the Torah must remain straight.
1. The false argument used by Chabad to permit intercession on a person’s behalf, is the act of Calev ben Yefuneh praying at the Cave of Machpelah in Chevron. He prayed for success in his mission of “spying out” the Land, Eretz Yisrael.
No one can use this as a precedent for asking the Tzaddikim – and specifically, Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn tz”l – who are no longer alive physically on earth, to pray on a person’s behalf. This causes them tremendous suffering in Shamayim.
This is twisting the Torah, and the Torah cannot ever be twisted.
The reason Calev’s act cannot be used as a precedent, is that NO ONE, can be compared to the supreme Kedusha of the Avot, of Avraham, Yitzchak ve’Yaakov Avinu.
We pray the Amidah 3 times a day, and we always recall the great merit of the Avot in the very first Beracha. What can be greater than that when we pray to Hashem?
This does need to be corrected very quickly, to be in line with the Torah.
2. When people need help, why don’t Chabad teach people to look inside the Torah, which is Eternal and Infinite – instead of letters written to other people by Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l during his lifetime?
Why doesn’t Chabad choose the very greatest of all prophets, Moshe Rabbeinu?
3. Moshe is the greatest of all prophets, and no other prophet was equal to him.
“Zichru Torat Moshe Avdi” we are told in Malachi (3:22)
There simply is no comparison between Moshe Rabbeinu and Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l, although Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l was a Tzaddik and a very righteous and good man.
Moshe Rabbeinu was the greatest of all prophets, and we do not even pray in the name of Moshe. Neither do we pray in the name of David Hamelech, whose descendent is the Mashiach.
However, in the very first Beracha of the Amidah, the silent prayer to Hashem containing our requests, we recall the merit of the Avot: “…..Elokei Avraham, Elokei Yitzhak Velokei Yaakov….” “….The G-d of Avraham, the G-d of Yitzhak and the G-d of Yaakov…”
The beracha is concluded with “Magen Avraham.
In summary:
(1) We pray to Hashem – at all times.
(2) There should be NO mediator between Hashem and a person’s tefillot – otherwise this is Assur.
Therefore the practice of using the “Igrot” for “requests” and “guidance” should be stopped. Similarly the practices of sending faxes to the Bet HaChaim, and praying to the tzaddik at the Bet HaChaim instead of directly to Hashem ourselves – should be stopped immediately. They are abhorrent and against the Torah.
The reason for this is that these practices use intercession. And the use of a “mediator” or someone to “intercede on a person’s behalf” to Hashem, is assur.
Teshuvah to Hashem must be done – very speedily.
Deborah,
So what you’re saying is that no one should ever pray at the kivrei tzadikim because it’s avodah zara?
Phil,
There should be no “mediator” between a person’s tefillot and Hashem. People should be praying to Hashem only. Directly themselves. Intercession and mediation is assur, and should be stopped.
Why was the place of Moshe, the very greatest of all the Prophets, kept hidden from us? Precisely so that Moshe would c”v not be worshipped. So that people would never pray to Moshe, c”v, instead of directly to Hashem, themselves. The Torah states very clearly:
“…velo yada ish et kevurato ad hayom hazeh” (Vezot Haberacha 34:6) “…and no man knows the place that he was buried even to this day.”
If people are praying to a tzaddik, who is finite – and of far lesser stature than Moshe – instead of to Hashem – who is Infinite – that is avodah zarah.
If people wish to go to the Kivrei Tzaddikim to pray to Hashem from there, that is their choice. Far better, is to encourage people to go instead to the most holy place in the world – the Kotel. Hashem’s Presence is always there. That is where people should be going to pray to Hashem. Not the Bet HaChaim.
Deborah,
People that daven at graves don’t daven to the people buried there. They daven to Hashem and ask the souls of the people buried to intercede on there behalf.
It seems that you think you a smarter or more knowledgeable than all the tzadikkim and gedolim that vist graves of other tzadikkim.
Accroding to you, we should shut down all these holy places including the mearat hamachpela because it’s avodah zara.
I’ll retiterate what I suggested to you last time, open a sefer or go to a shiur. I’m not trying to be condescending, just good advice. It seems you have much to learn.
Phil,
People should not be going to the Bet HaChaim to “ask the neshamot” of the tzaddikim to “intercede” on their behalf. This is intercession. It is assur, and should be stopped. That is what I have said.
The people who are visiting the Bet HaChaim and going there for intercession are all doing that which is assur.
Read the Torah again. Read and understand why the burial place of Moshe Rabbeinu has been hidden from us. Note what I said about praying at the Kotel. Note what I said about Moshe Rabbeinu the greatest of all prophets – we do not pray in the name of Moshe. Neither do we pray in the name of David Hamelech, whose descendent is the Mashiach.
Note what I said about the structure of the Amidah. In the very first Beracha of the Amidah, we recall the merit of the Avot. Nothing can be greater than that when we pray to Hashem:
“…..Elokei Avraham, Elokei Yitzhak Velokei Yaakov….” “….The G-d of Avraham, the G-d of Yitzhak and the G-d of Yaakov…”
The beracha is concluded with “Magen Avraham.
Wake up.
Don’t start with your condescension to me every time I point out that Am Yisrael are doing some very wrong practices which are assur, and which require correction and Teshuvah to Hashem.
It seems you have no wish to improve yourself, others, or do any kind of Teshuvah.
So now you’re saying that the prayers written to read at graves are idolatrous?
What about the selichot in which we ask the malachim to intercede on our behalf? Is that A.Z too?
Should we shut down the meara and give full control of it to hamas instead?
What about kever Rachel?
Do you know that she was buried there so Jews would cry at her grave when going into exile?
Phil,
If those prayers and faxes that are written to read at the Bet HaChaim are using intercession – yes – this practice is assur, and should be stopped. There should be no “mediator” between a person’s tefillot and Hashem. We are only allowed to pray to Hashem.
2. If people want to pray to anyone else, and make requests of any being other than Hakadosh Baruch Hu, they might as well join Christianity.
When Moshe prayed, he prayed to Hashem. He did not pray to any Malachim or any celestial beings. These are all the creations of Hashem.
We are not allowed to pray to the creations of Hashem.
Similarly, the Selichot which you have referred to, and the Neilah prayer for Yom Kippur in the Ashkenazi tradition – they include direct Tefillot and requests to Malachim. The Malachim are the creations of Hashem.
We are not allowed to pray to any Malachim.
This is completely assur and causes very great damage and harm. I emphasise that this is something very grave which needs to be rectified as well – speedily.
The Selichot and the Neilah Tefillah for Yom Kippur should be amended speedily to remove all prayers and requests to Malachim.
The Arizal nusach has the selichot prayer, he was no vuzvuz as far far as I know.
You still haven’t answered the questions about the meara and kever Rachel.
Should we cancel tours to the Rambam’s grave as well?
phil,
the 2 part question really is:
a) are you praying at the rebbe’s grave for the rebbe to bring your prayers to god?
b) why or why not?
NGT,
I’m pasting URL’s to some articles in reponse to your questions, I’m sure they’ll provide enough insight:
http://www.torah.org/advanced/weekly-halacha/5760/shlach.html
http://www.campsci.com/iguide/praying_at_the_grave.htm
http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/562222/jewish/Is-it-okay-to-ask-a-deceased-tzaddik-to-pray-on-my-behalf.htm
Rambam holds that the world to come is a world of souls. Chassidus holds like the Ramban that the world to come is a world of souls in bodies. Therefore Moshiach will live forever. Therefore his son will not rule after him. Therefore the Rebbe is still Moshiach.
David Chaim,
Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneersohn tz”l, known as, ‘The Rebbe,’ was NOT the Moshiach.
The Moshiach never dies. He is always alive, in a physical body, in every generation. Rabbi Schneersohn tz”l, died. He was not the Moshiach.
You are bordering on Christianity, and committing the grave sin of Avodah Zarah, Idolatry.
Idolatry is forbidden in the Torah, and is the Second of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Go back and study the Second Commandment of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Go back and understand the Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith.
And go back and understand what the Shema means:
“Hishameru lachem, pen yifteh levavechem, vesartem va’avadetem elohim acheirim, ve’hishtachavitem lahem. Ve’charah af Hashem bachem….”
“Take heed, lest your HEART be seduced, and you turn away and worship gods who are alien, and you prostrate yourselves before them. (For then) the wrath of Hashem will ignite against you….”
“Vehaya lachem letzitzit, ure’item oto, uzechartem et kol mitzvot Hashem, va’asitem otam, velo taturu acharei levavechem, ve’acharei eyneichem, asher atem zonim achareihem…”
“And they shall serve for you as tzitzit, fringes, (so that) you shall see it, and remember all the Commandments of Hashem, and fulfill them, and (so that) you will NOT STRAY after the desires of your HEART and after your eyes, after which you are inclined to go after….
Deborah Shaya,
This is a very unfortunate issue that yidden have to resort to this sort of name calling one against the other G-d forbid. A yid enjoys a presumption of being kosher. To call a yid anything but is truly lowly.
At a time when yidden all over the world are celebrating that we finally have the redemption, instead of fighting so hard against it, why not learn about the geuala shlema and become a part of making it happen now mamash.
David Chaim,
I am doing my best to make the geulah actually happen.
Where a correction is needed, I have pointed it out. There cannot be any avodah zarah in Am Yisrael. Where it is occurring, it needs to be stopped, and Teshuvah must be done.
Please think carefully about what I have written.
There is no name calling, and I am not lowly.
avoda zara can be the worship of anything outside of G-d Almighty. Since the Rebbe being Moshiach is a fact of Torah Law it is not Avoda Zara. However spreading rumors and making drama and making emotional or intellectual outbursts that are outside of Torah could be Avoda Zara. Gmar Chasima Tova.
I would love to know what parsha it’s in, or even which tractate of the talmud or seif in Shulchan Aruch. I’ve been asking that question for 15 years, haven’t had one REAL answer yet.
Truth is the only person who paskens on Moshiach’s identity is the Rambam. It’s all in the Rambam: Mishna Torah, (Laws of Kings: 11:4).
“If a king will arise from the House of David who delves deeply in Torah and occupies himself in the observance of Mitzvot, like David his ancestor, in accordance with the written Torah and the oral Torah, and he will compel all of the Jewish people (lit. Israel) to follow it [the Torah], and strengthen the meticulousness [i.e. repair the breaches of] of its observance, and he fights the wars of G-d-behold, this [one enjoys the status] a “presumed Moshiach”
and so on.
Get with it, most yechi people stopped quoting the Rambam long ago, when they realized the blatant hypocrisy of doing so. The Rambam clearly states that Mashiach has to rebuild the Beis Hamikdash in it’s place, (not 770), which you conveniently left out, as well as fight the wars of God and gather the Jews in Galus to Eretz Yisrael.
Tough I’ve already posted the following response to this article a few months ago, I’m re-pasting it for your convenience:
The Rebbe once wrote a letter that I have in a book (Letter and the spirit), specifically stating that “according to the Rambam, none can call anyone moshiach until he rebuilds the beis hamikdash in it’s place”. So anyone that claims to follow the Rebbe’s teachings, should adhere to this reasoning.
Is the Lubavitcher endorsing that viewpoint of the Rambam you quote? In that quote he does say “according to the Rambam.” What’s the broader context of the letter?
I already posted this in another posts related to Chabad, but here it is again:
I found the letter that answers all the issues at once, it’s on page 273 of the Rebbe letter in English from the book I mentioed on the previous post.
I’m quoting word for word (page 273) from the English translation (Dr. Nissan Mindel), the Rebbe is expanding on the ruling of the Rambam hil Melachim, ch 11:
Start quote:
We see clearly that even after he induces ALL of the Jewish people to walk in the path of Torah, etc., it may be ASSUMED that he is Mashiach, but it is not certain, and it could in fact turn out that he is not. In other words, there is still a possibility that even this event will not spell the end of Galut. As a mater of fact, Rambam mentions in the previous Halacha the fact that there was a time in Jewish history when it appeared that Mashiach had arrived, in the person of Shimon ben Kuziba, yet it later became quite clear that he was not. ONLY WHEN – as the Rambam says – he will build the sanctuary in it’s place and will gather the disperesed of Israel, ONLY THEN will it be certain that HE is Mashiach beyond all doubt.
End quote.
One of the rabbis I took classes under told a story about how a missionary was trying to convert the Jew on a plane. He got fed up listening to it. He went in and told the missionary that BAR KOCHBA (sp?) was the moshiach.
The missionary answered, “Impossible, he’s dead.”
Uh, huh…
Moshiach is not J or Bar Kochba and NOT Schneerson
Fascinating that he argued with you. You are Chabad and still you know better. if only the rest of them….
“My other issue is this: No one has ever actually been able to tell me if believing a dead person is the moshiach is against halacha.”
It depends on what you mean by “against halacha”. It is certainly not a Jewish belief; Jews historically never believed in a resurrected messiah. And if you want to see that explicitly, Sefer HaBris writes “However, whoever does not finish the job but dies or is broken or is captured then he is not [Moshiach] and G-d did not send him.” And this is, of course, just a paraphrase of the Rambam but he makes it clear that he doesn’t have to be “killed” as the Rambam’s wording might indicate, but rather “death” is sufficient to render him not messiah. And of course the Rambam writes explicitly that anyone who does not succeed is not Moshiach, so certainly someone who dies has not succeeded in the missions which Moshiach must complete. And there are many other sources, including the Rebbe himself, who says the David HaMelech cannot be moshiach because he is dead (see Likutei Sichos v35 p206 n6).
But to say that it is “against halacha” meaning heretical is difficult. See the Bnei Banim (4:26) where he paskens that the belief is misguided and stupid, but not heretical. Also see Mishne Halachos (17:255) who goes a little farther in his criticism.
From Kuntres Beis Rabenu Shebebavel by the Rebbe:
One mights suggest that this idea that the Beit Hamikdash will begin its return to Jerusalem from its place in exile is allude to in Maimonoide’s description o f Moshiach: ” If he…built the Beit Hamikdash in its place…. he is definitely Moshiach.” Why are the words “in its place” necessary? And if they are necessary, why does Maimonides not name the place explicitly by saying, “if he… built the Beit Hamikdash in Jerusalem?”
the answer is that since, grammatically, “in its place” can also be read as “in his place,” it is an allusion to Moshiach’s place in exile – that is, before he achieves that status of Moshiach vadai (Definitely Moshiach). While still in exile, Moshiach builds a Small temple – a microcosm and a model of the Beit Hamikdash. this is a preparation for the future Beit Hamikdash. This Small Temple will be revealed first there, in exile, and will then return (with G-d and the Jewish people) to Jerusalem.
Nobody ever gave up on the Rambam. Rabbi Akiva called Bar Kohba Moshiach before he was Moshaich Vadai so obviosly it is proper to call someone Moshiach before the whole world realizes that he is the Moshiach. There are two stages of Moshaich’s coming in the Rambam, one when he is the presumed Moshiach and later when he is the Moshiach for sure. When he is the presumed Moshiach he already is called Moshiach and it is a strong presumption that he is Moshiach until he finishes off the job and becomes Moshiach for sure.
For a Chosid it’s obvous that the Rebbe is Moshiach. The Rebbe taught that every Chosid has to bring out and show the world that his Rebbe is Moshiach so for someone who follows the Rebbe’s teachings it is a must to show the world that the Rebbe is Moshiach.
Dovid cannot be Moshiach because Moshiach has to come from the same generation that he is Redeeming. The Rebbe is still the leader of this generation and he is still the Rebbe of this generation. He started the process of Redemption and he is the one who will take all yidden out of golus. It should be this year now. 5770.
David Chaim,
Rabbi Schneerson tz”l has passed away. In 1994.
Please come to terms with this. You cannot write that he is “the leader of this generation.”
The Mashiach is another person, who is physically alive, in this generation.
Rabbi Schneerson tz”l is no longer physically alive. So he WAS not the Mashiach.
Deborah Shaya, I mean no disrespect G-d forbid. But I really don’t understand where you are coming from with your statement. Therefore it is very hard for me to answer you in a proper manner. Can you please explain why you say what you are saying. Are you saying this according to what you learned? Are you saying this as something that most peole grew up knowing. Are you saying it as common sense? I think that I might have a better chance to answer your statement if i understood what it is that you are trying to say more clearly. Again it is Erev Yom Kippur so I am not trying to make a joke or to make anyone upset G-d forbid.
Gmar Chatima Tova. Moshiach Now.
David Chaim,
Following your reasoning, the previous Rebbe should have been Moshiach too. Even after he passed away and the Rebbe visited the Ohel very often, that didn’t stop the Rebbe from referring to him as if he were still alive. So at what point did he stop “being” moshiach (at which time the Rebbe “replaced” him)?
In general, proclaiming the Rebbe to be a potential moshiach while he was still alive, was somewhat acceptable to a few Jews outside Lubavitch, as they clearly recongnized him as the leader of the generation. Once he passed away and everyone realized he isn’t moshiach (according to Rambam), it is insulting to the rest of klal Yisrael to keep insisting. What makes him any more Mashiach than R. Moshe Feinstein, Rav Shach or the Satmar Rebbe?
Personally, I feel R. Meir Kahane had more of a chance of becoming Mashiach had he not been shot. He actually encouraged and attempted to convince worldwide Jewry to move to Israel, and had a much better chance of rebuilding the Beis Hamikdash. Check out some of his speeches on Youtube, especially the ones at yeshiva university, and you’ll see how prophetic his statements were.
Wearing a yechi yarmulka, screaming it out at various intervals of davening, bentching (and even funerals!) is simply stupid and offensive. You want to believe in it, keep your baseless ideas to yourself. Yechis have managed to make Lubavitch the laghingstock of the frum world, and destroyed any credibility it ever had.
Not one posek or gadol outside lubavitch says yechi. For a few nutjobs from Tzfas to decide who mashiach is for the rest of us, when we clearly know that no one knows who or when mashiach is coming, is sheer lunacy, and extreme arrogance.
Now that’s I’ve crapped all over your beliefs, I apologize if I hurt your personal feelings, I really have nothing against you personally, as I don’t even know you. I have many friends that are yechis, just as I have non Jewish friends that believe in yoshke (l’havdil).
5770 should be the year we fing out for once and for all, even if the rebbe isn’t moshiach, at least you’ll have some sort of claim to the year.
Gmar Chasima Tova.
I wish you all a good and sweet year, a Shanah Tovah to all.
This discussion focuses on a concern of mine.
I have a favorite Chabad rabbi who kashered my kitchen and took my new dishes, utensils and pots to the mikveh. I still go to some of his classes.
I decided against moving near his Chabad House precisely because I am uncomfortable about the public reverence given to the Rebbe and the convoluted beliefs enunciated about the Rebbe being the moschiach.
The Rebbe was undoubted A leader of his generation, and HaRav Mosha Feinstein was the leading posek for America. We are fortunate that we were blessed by these and other leaders. Hopefully a new leader will emerge for this generation.
To quote an old saying: “When the Mosiach comes, we can ask him if is coming for the second time or the first time.”
Chag Sameach Succos,
Linda
“When the Mosiach comes, we can ask him if is coming for the second time or the first time.”
That sounds like a defense of Xtianity….
It does.
Sadly, my plans to get a Jews for Jesus Evangelist and a Meshichist Chabadnik to debate which dead Yid is really the Messiah never seem to go anywhere.
Hi Michaltastic-
I first heard this saying “When the Mosiach comes, we can ask him if is coming for the second time or the first time” quoted by Danny Aylon (sp), then the Israeli Ambassador to the USA in the context of whether Israel should accept aid from Evangelistic Christians. He was saying the question of whether Jesus is the Mosiach can be deferred until the Mosiach comes when he could be asked.
I was trying to inject a little humor into this debate by positing that we could defer the question of whether the Rebbe is the Mosiach until the Mosiach comes.
Be well,
MiriamD
Ok – there are a few VERY misinformed people here. First, Deborah Shaya, I don’t think you fully understand the gravity of your statements. You are not just denouncing “Meshichistim,” or even just Lubavitch, but rather a basic principle of Chassidism as A”Z (Chas V’Sholom). The Rebbe is the Nosi HaDor – “HaNosi Hu HaKol.” Since in him is his entire generation, all Brochos go through him. I also find it interesting that you call the Rebbe a Tzaddik, and yet say that anyone who goes to a person as an intermediary is serving A”Z (Chas V’Sholom). If you don’t believe me about the countless other times the Rebbe said it, here is a video where the Rebbe clearly states that he is an “intermediary” for Hashem’s blessings: <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIH3AfmnPS0" I highly recommend you read the book A Tzaddik and his Students by Rabbi Shloma Majeski, which goes into great detail clarifying this concept.
And as to what Phil said, the Rebbe made it quite clear that anything he said about his father-in-law, he really meant about himself. There is one Sicha in which the Rebbe says flatly the successor of his father-in-law (an obvious reference to himself) is Moshiach.
Obviously, Nosi of every generation is the Moshiach of his generation, and therefore the Previous Rebbe was the Moshiach of his generation. But the Rebbe said clearly that THIS generation, the 9th from the Baal Shem Tov and the 7th from the Alter Rebbe (Baal HaTanya), is the LAST generation of Golus and the FIRST generation of Geulah. There is nothing further.
In addition, as to the belief that the Rebbe is still alive, in a physical body, the Rebbe said (Parshas Bo 5752) that in this generation, UNLIKE all previous generations, it is not possible for the Nosi to die. He must be alive in a physical body. So there have clear statements in the Rebbe’s Sichos that a) he is Moshiach. And b) Moshiach cannot die. Even if our eyes tell us otherwise. (I’m sure that they called Chur an Apikores when he said that Moshe Rabbeinu was still alive, and would come back to bring them the Torah – even after they all saw Moshe’s funeral procession, a much more elaborate one than what took place on 3 Tammuz 5754. And look what came out of that…)
So I hope now it is clear that this is not some “fringe group,” but rather a group of people (and a much larger one than some would like to portray) that take their Rebbe seriously. You want to call the Rebbe crazy now? Go ahead. But don’t be Poseach al Shtei HaS’ifim.
EK,
Your misinterpretations of what the Rebbe said make you sound like a cross between pentacostal missionary and a die hard star trek fan.
The clearly didn’t want people to call him mashiach throughout his life, and repeated that over and over again, even banning the predescessor song to with the yechi tune that hinted at him being moshiach. It was after his stroke when he couldn’t speak and was basically paralized that people had the nerve to start the yechi garbage in front of him.
You seem to have been brainwashed that Lubavitch is the beginning and end of all Judaism, and that we know everything better than everyone else. Only you know who the real nossi hador was, and only you can decide who mashiach is and will be.
According to you closed minded egomaniacs, what any other Chassidim, misnagdim of Sephardim do is meaningless, and their tzaddikim/gedolim are amateurs compared to our Rebbeim which are all on the level of Moshe Rabbeinu.
A perfect example is the way sefer haminhagim overrides the shulchan aruch time and time again. Never mind what halacha says, if someone saw a Rebbe do something once, that becomes law, never mind what the intent was. A perfect example is the well known non holding of the Esrog during hallel.
You can use all your silly arguments to convince yourself, if it makes you happy, good for you.
To EK:
Avodah Zarah is now at the core of Lubavitch. There is a very strong, core belief, that Rabbi Schneerson tz”l “is” “the Mashiach”. He was not – because he died – in 1994.
The Mashiach is always PHYSICALLY alive in every generation, in a physical body, and does not die. To say that he “is”, is bordering on Christianity.
Lubavitch have twisted the Torah to suit themselves. The Torah cannot be mixed with Avodah Zarah. The Torah must always remain straight.
Idolatry is forbidden in the Torah, and is the Second of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Go back and study the Second Commandment of the Asseret Hadibrot.
Go back and understand the Rambam’s 13 Principles of Faith.
And go back and understand what the Shema means:
“Hishameru lachem, pen yifteh levavechem, vesartem va’avadetem…. ve’hishtachavitem lahem. Ve’charah af Hashem bachem….”
“Take heed, lest your HEART be seduced, and you turn away and worship gods who are alien, and you prostrate yourselves before them. (For then) the wrath of Hashem will ignite against you….”
It is best to do Teshuvah now.
EK:
There should be NO MEDIATOR between a person’s tefillot and Hashem.
If a person chooses to use intercession instead of praying directly to Hashem, this is completely Assur.
Hashem likes to hear the prayers, tefillot, from our OWN mouths. Even if all we know is how to recite the first 3 letters of the Aleph Bet: Aleph, Bet, Gimmel….. Our very own tefillot TO HASHEM, are much more precious than anything else.
By going to the Bet HaChaim (cemetery – incorrectly referred to as “the Ohel” by Lubavitch), and lighting a candle, praying, making a request, and then going home – such a person is “leaving it all to the tzaddik” who is not physically alive. You can’t leave it all “to him!”. This is completely Assur and forbidden.
We too, can be tzaddikim – and be like the tzaddik. The tzaddik has already made all his tefillot to Hashem in his lifetime. And these are very precious to Hashem. The tzaddik has now passed on.
Hashem is now waiting for US – to make our OWN tefillot to Him.
We pray to Hashem – at all times. If a person is insisting on praying to one of the creations of Hashem, instead of directly to the King Himself, Hashem will say to us, “You are meant to pray to ME!”
Remember that Hashem, our G-d, is a very “JEALOUS G-D” who demands “EXCLUSIVE WORSHIP.” (2nd Commandment of the Asseret Hadibrot.)
What is your logic in going there?
The Ashkenazi tradition has encouraged people to do this, and it is very wrong. Teshuvah to Hashem must be done quickly.
To EK:
The Jewish People is a “Holy People.” “Am Kadosh.”
We are referred to as being Hashem’s special “Treasure.” We are a “Holy Nation,” and so holy, that we are to emulate the Cohanim, who are of a much higher stature than the rest of the Jewish People. One day, we will all be on the level of a “Kingdom of Priests.”
Hashem has told us, “.…Ve’atem tiheyu li Mamlechet Kohanim ve’goi kadosh…” (Yitro, 19:5-6)
“…And you shall be to Me, a KINGDOM OF PRIESTS, and a HOLY NATION….”
The Benei Yisrael must follow the example of the true Kohanim. We should emulate the Cohanim in our daily lives. The Cohanim are not allowed to go into any cemetery (Jewish or not Jewish), as they cannot come into contact with ANY meitim whatsoever. We too, should emulate the Kohanim in our daily lives, and be pure like them.
We too, should not be coming into contact with meitim where we can help it.
A person’t tefillot, prayers, from the Kotel, or from his or her own house are truly delightful to Hashem. A person can also go to the Kotel to pray, and make the journey there, to pray to Hashem. Hashem’s Presence is always there.
EK:
One final word:
The best person to go to for a blessing is someone who is known to be a true Kohen. The Cohen has a specific function to act as an “interface” between Hashem and the Jewish People – and to bless them.
It is only through someone who is a true Kohen that the full Bracha from Hashem can pass directly to Am Yisrael, for material and spiritual welfare. This is done through the,”Birchat Cohanim”. And it is only the Kohen, a true descendant of Aharon HaCohen, who can give this beracha.
The Cohen has a specific function to bless the Jewish People . It is only the Cohen who can truly bless Israel, and he is commanded to do so, “Be’ahava” “in love”. The Shechinah, the Presence of Hashem, is able to rest on him alone, as he is a true descendant of Aharon HaKohen, the first Cohen HaGadol.
The Tzaddikim who are not Cohanim, but who give blessings, are actually “taking over” the role of the Cohen, for themselves.
This should be corrected, so that the role of the Cohen to give brachot is returned to him, and not taken on by others.
Deborah Shaya, you are simply repeating yourself and did not answer any of my points. Do you acknowledge that your statements label all Chasidim (not just Lubavitch), a pretty big chunk of the Orthodox world, as worshipers of A”Z?
Phil, I think it’s a Chutzpah She’ein Kamohu that someone who never learned the Sichos is telling me what I’m “misinterpreting.” What does it mean ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? Can you tell me what I’m mistranslating?
“The Rebbe clearly didn’t want people to call him mashiach throughout his life.” Right. That’s countless people who wrote to the Rebbe in 5751-52 about their activities publicizing him as Moshiach received nothing but Brochos. And that’s why in Iyar ’51 when the Rebbe was presented with a Psak Din from Lubavitcher Rabbonim worldwide declaring that he is Moshaich, his only responses were a hearty smile, “Yasher Koach,” and that “it should be a continued endeavor.”
That same weekend in Iyar a Chossid approached the Rebbe (during “Dollars”) and said, “I have heard a rumour that the Rebbe is against the publicizing that has been going on recently.” The Rebbe replied, strongly, “I have no connection to rumours!”. Less than two weeks later on 15 Iyar, after the distribution of “Dvar Malchus” and after Maariv the Chassidim sang “Yechi” to the tune it is sung today, and both times, the Rebbe waved his arms excitedly as he exited the Shul. So, once again, if you want to call the Rebbe an Apikores – fine. But don’t blame it on the Chasidim. We’re just following our Rebbe.
And it has nothing to do with “knowing better than everyone else.” It’s very simple. We are Lubavitcher Chasidim, and as Lubavitcher Chasidim, we believe that our Rebbe is Moshiach. All Chasidim are like that. It happens to be that OUR Rebbe actually affirmed these beliefs, which makes them infinitely stronger.
EK,
What makes you think I never learned Sichos? I went to Lubavitch since grade 1, and still live and daven in Lubavitch 3 times a day, 30 years later.
You guys seem to have a knack of changing history. For 40 years, the Rebbe went on about he wasn’t mashiach. Ask R. Krinsky, if you won’t take my word for it.
In a letter translated in the book the letter and the spirit, the Rebbe specifically says one isn’t allowed to call anyone mashiach, unless he rebuilds the Beis Hamikdash in it’s place, and don’t give me that story about 770 being the beis Hamikdash.
According to your idea every Rebbe of every sect is Mashiach, along with every tzaddik and Rosh yeshiva. The way you’re headed, the next logical step is to become a trinitarian boreinunik.
If you can tell me “don’t give me that story about 770 being the beis Hamikdash,” you obviously have NOT learned the Sichos, because the Rebbe says this CLEARLY in Kuntres Beis Rabbeinu Shebebavel! And it is quite evident that over the years, the way the Rebbe felt about this issued changed greatly. A perfect example is the exact same booklet that Rabbi Sholom Ber Wolpo tried to print in 5744 and was rejected by the Rebbe with pretty strong language – when Rabbi Wolpo wanted to print it again in 5751 he was showered with Brochos!
And I did NOT say that the leader of every sect in Moshiach. I said that every sect BELIEVES that their Rebbe is Moshiach.
EK,
What your saying contradicts itself. If Chassidim believe that their Rebbe is Mashiach, then the should have started doing so on Yud Shevat. Why would the Rebbe suddenly “change his mind” after 40 years?
What did the Freidiker Rebbe’s Chassidim believe after Yud Shvat?
Now the real question: What if Mashiach is NOT a Lubavitcher? Is that even a remote possibility in your minds? Maybe he’s a sefardi, a satmar or a misnagged”? Will you then say that he’s invalid, or will you say that the Rebbe re-incarnated in another “costume”?
1. Chasidim had that belief from the beginning, and the Rebbe hinted at it from the get-go (everyone knew what the Rebbe meant in Bosi Le’Gani). There were Chasidim who publicized it right from the beginning (perhaps you’ve heard of Avrohom Pariz), but, in general, the more the Rebbe “Kochs Zich” in Moshiach, the more Chasidim “Koch Zich” in the Rebbe being Moshiach. This of course, culminated in the 5750’s with the Rebbe openly accepting the role of Moshiach.
2. They immediately put their complete faith behind the Rebbe. And from that point onward he became the Nosi HaDor, who is the Moshiach Shebe’Dor, may he redeem us immediately.
(Your third question I don’t feel is of any concern. I will say one thing, though. At the Chanukas HaBayis of the Mikdosh HaShlishi, there’s going to be a lot of “I told you so’s.”
EK,
You and all your yechi buddies seems to forget that the Rebbe passed away on Gimmel Tammuz, unless you believe that was just a prank he pulled.
As to my third question, that’s exactly the sort of cop out answer I’ve been getting for 15 years. I didn’t actually expect you to answer it, no yechis ever do.
Bottom line is, in 1 generation, the yechis have destroyed what 7 rebbes took 300 years to build, and turned Lubavitch into the laughingstock of the frum world.
So when you go to the 770 hamikdosh, be sure to pour some Smirnoff on the Mizbeach when you’re done offering the korban cholent, maybe you’ll even get lucky enough and experience a Rebbe sighting.
It’s funny, Phil. You claim that the Rebbe is the holiest person you’ve ever met, but you don’t give a hoot about what he says. Sort of like Zalman Schachter or Ariel Sharon.
Open up the Sicha of Bo 5752 at tell me what the Rebbe means when he says that in this generation, the 9th from the Baal Shem Tov, UNLIKE ALL PREVIOUS GENERATIONS, it i not possible for the Nosi to die – it’s not even possible for him to be sick! Crazy? Yes. But there’s the Rebbe for you. Take it or leave it.
As far as your question and my “cop out” answer, I could throw the exact same kind of question at any frum person and they would also give me a “cop-out answer.”
“What if, when Moshiach finally comes, we find out it really was Yoshke all along? Will you say that he’s invalid? Or will you say that it’s really a different person that the one who lived 2,000 years ago?”
EK,
Rashi says Yaakov Avinu lo meis. Then the Torah tells us he was embalmed. Though it doesn’t describe the process, it is impossible to physically survive being embalmed.
The Rebbe and all Tzadikim live on through their teachings and the people they managed to influence.
Anyone that thinks that the Rebbe didn’t get sick, have a stroke, get treated by doctors, died and was buried, is delusional and needs a good shrink.
Again disregarding the Rebbe’s words! The Rebbe says clearly that if “lo meis” means his memory, his teachings, or his influence, than what’s the Chidush? You can say that about any Tzaddik. So it has to mean LO MEIS k’pshuto.
And in any case the Rebbe said the Nosi HaDor must be alive in a PHYSICAL BODY. “There is no concept of burial by the Nosi HaDor.”
EK,
So no you’re saying that Yaakov Avinu was embalmed alive and buried alive as well?
I suppose Gimmel Tammuz never happened and it was an empty coffin that was buried at the ohel. Heck, if Nosi hador is always alive and can’t be buried, the Frierdiker Rebbe isn’t buried there either. Of course, that doesn’t explain why the Rebbe went to daven there all the time…
I seriously think have should lay off the Smirnoff…
No, I’m saying that (presumably) it appeared as though he died just as it appeared as though Moshe Rebbeinu died on Har Sinai on 16 Tammuz 2448, and it appeared as though the Rebbe died on 3 Tammuz 5754.
And I did not say that A Nosi HaDor can’t die, I said THIS Nosi HaDor can’t die. “Mah She’ein Kein B’Doreinu ZEH!”
Besides, the late Menachem Schneerson didn’t build that house.
EK,
Moshe Rabbeinu did pass away, I heard something about 7 Adar, correct me if I’m wrong. Now you’re saying that the Rebbe is immortal and can’t die, even though he did.
You idiots will likely next claim that the Rebbe created the world and bow to his picture in 770.
I’m no longer going to waste my time arguing with such childish ideas.
But thirty-nine years earlier, the entire people witnesses Moshe’s “funeral,” on top of the Mountain, which led them to decide that a golden calf would be a good idea…
I wasn’t me who said that the Rebbe cannot die, it was the Rebbe! So, if I’m an Apikores, then so is the Rebbe. Decide whatever you want. But you can’t have it both ways.
There are probably folks who do believe the Rebbe was an apikorus – especially due to the fact they used to sing that he was moshiach and he didn’t seem to mind – although insiders tell me it was one of his henchmen that was the real apikorus. I was at the funereal but I never saw the casket.
I’m sure there are. But my point is that one cannot say, “the Rebbe was a big Tzaddik, he just has some crazy followers who say he’s Moshiach,” because this is what the Rebbe HIMSELF said. So either we’re all Apikorsim, or we’re all doing the right thing – one or the other.
Above, the question marks said in Hebrew “HaNosi HaDor Hu HaMoshiach Shebe’Dor.”
EK, I stopped going to the local Lubavitch shul when they changed the name to “Bes Menachem”. If I wanted an undead Savior who stands between me and the Almighty, who passes on my prayers and who has the power to compel the Master of the Universe to do his bidding I’d be a fucking Christian. At least I’d be able to have bacon cheeseburgers.
You are professing the same stupidities as Deborah Shaya. See my comments to her above.
When you said that evidence didn’t matter you took a sharp turn into the land of 100% Full Cuckoo. You know your dead Saviour is right because he wrote letters saying he is right. Even if you were proven wrong that only means you must be right.
If you can’t see how insane this is there’s no point talking to you. I only hope you don’t get hit by a meteoric Russell’s Teapot while you’re davening “Shema Yisroel Menachem eloheynu…”
Sorry for the blasphemy. It should be “Shema Yisroel M-n-ch-m eloheynu…”.
So now you argue with Rashi, also! And you call me the Apikores…
I’m not arguing with Rashi. I’m telling you there’s no point in talking to someone who assumes his conclusions and says he’ll disregard any evidence that doesn’t support them.
Yes you are arguing with Rashi! Rashi, in Parshas Ki Sisa, says that the Yidden were Moshe’s aron and his “funeral procession,” and that is when they decided to make the Eigel.
EK,
Rashi says that the satan showed them a fomr of a coffin floating in the sky, NOT that they attended his funeral.
They didn’t perform a Tahara, their was no body, and thousands of Jews didn’t go to daven at his grave for 15 years after his passing.
Furthermore, he did eventually pass away, despite being greatest nosi hador ever, uncontested, as the Torah says so.
EK:
Wake Up.
Start using your intelligence.
And do Teshuvah.
Teshuvah is very great and regarded very highly in Shamayim. A person should seize the opportunity to do Teshuva to Hashem right now, while “the Gates of Teshuva are open”. By doing a true and sincere Teshuva to Hashem, the brachot (blessings) from Hashem will come into a person’s life, and obstacles will begin to shift.
So swallow your pride.
EK & the rest of the yechi clan,
I know this is going to sound like a Yechi thing, but someone in shul pointed out that there are 5770 days between Gimmel Tammuz (The Rebbe’s yartzeit in 1994) and the first day of Pessach.
I ran the calculation in Excel and it adds up.
Chag Sameach.
Believing a dead person is the Moshiach? If that isn’t against Halacha than it certainly isn’t against Halacha to believe Yeshua/Jesus is the Moshiach either. He actually did rise from the dead, and is the only Rabbi that all Jewish people agree is not the Moshiach. Isn’t that suspicious?
Perhaps that peace never came to us because nobody noticed him except the Gentiles? At that, how would Gentiles have known what to do or believe about him – in terms of how Jews think of a Moshiach? Greek doesn’t even have an accurate enough translation of the word “Moshiach.” The Greeks would have thought the word meant some kind of “God-Man” like Hercules probably.
Considering the Jesus as presented by the Christian religion almost certainly never existed, I highly doubt he rose from the dead.
And to my knowledge, Kristos (???????), means the exact same thing as Moshiach: anointed.
Good reply, EK. Furthermore, Brooklyn, what does a pig-eater know about Halacha? Your hypothetical discussions about a mythical person whom you anachronistically call a “Rabbi” are used only to further your Xian agenda. The Halacha tells us many things. Start doing them, and stop doing what it says not to, and then MAYBE someone will listen to you. However, your fairy tales will still be fairy tales.
Use your head! IF there were a serious Jewish guy who was or wanted to be a leader, would he be hanging out with zonos, or with people who had tzoraas? There is a REASON why your “New Testament” contains all the nonsense it contains. Ever try to figure out what that might be?
Mine was basically a question. If the Messiah happened to appear and was only noticed by non-Jews. How would they have known what to do or believe about him? They wouldn’t have known in terms of how Jewish people think of a Messiah. They would have to learn that over time. The whole point was that non-Jews do not know about halacha.
About the word “Kristos” yes it does mean “anointed one” in Greek. But it was a question of context, who does the anointing in Greek thought? Zeus? In that case, what would the outcome of such an anointing be? The person who recieved it would become like a god himself. Wouldn’t he?
How different is the concept of an “anointed one” in Jewish terms?
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, which is why I brought up the question of Greek words and “Kristos.” If it was written in Greek, that would mean the New Testament was written through Greek influenced thought. What would Greek/non-Jewish people have known what to do or believe about the Messiah if they were the only ones who noticed him?
Bottom line is, you can believe whatever you want; but point is, in actuality whats the difference, unless it’s going to affect your conduct in Torah and Mitzvos for the better or not, than theres nothing to it. If by believing The Rebbe will be Moshiach that will help you feel Moshiach is something real to you and is really coming soon IY”H!.. than that’s a really great thing and i’m sure The Rebbe would be happy! think about it! 🙂
So if believing Jeebus or Sabbatai Zvi is the Messiah helps you be a good Jew and do mitzvot that’s alright?
You really don’t want to go there.
I don’t whether she does, but I do. Your hypothetical comparison makes no sense. The “NT” comic-book character to whom you refer never existed, but that character is displayed as mocking halacha. A mamzer who hangs out with zonos and lepers? King of the Jews? That hypothetical case of a mythical character is NOT a case of helping anyone to be a good Jew and do mitzvos. I believe that Shabtai Tzvi was also a case where Jews were not positively encouraged, but if they were, then Chabad Girl’s point was still valid, up to where he chickened out and became Muslim. Then he was hardly encouraging halachic behavior, so his case didn’t fit Chabad Girl’s criteria.
CG made an interesting point, and you haven’t refuted it.
Yes! If by believing in whoever you mentioned will cause you to improve in Torah and Mitzvos then go right ahead! (but fact is, that by believeing in yoshke G-D forbid than you are believing all that comes with it, which ultimately leads to keeping no Torah and Mitzvos)
keep thinking about it! 🙂
Mendel Schneerson was not the Moshiach. He had Moshiach like qualities due to his elevated spiritual state. He was a possible Moshiach but did not make it. I believe Mendel Schneerson was Aaron incarnated and he was a type of savior who brought his people back to Torah studies.
Why was Mendel Schneerson Aaron? He showed all the signs of redemption. Just as Moshe and Arron represented the two Meshichim figures. Mendel showed signs of the redemption because of what his soul represented, but he himself was not either Meschichim.
If people want to believe Mendel Scheerson was the Moshiach. Then they are refuting the claims of other religions who say they had the Moshiach. How is it different that one should believe Mendel Schneerson is the Moshiach when Christians believe Yeshua (Jesus) was the Moshiach? The only difference is a clash of idolization. Whoever worships Mendel Scheerson is no greater then one who worships angels. Mendel Schneerson did not come out and claim to be Moshiach nor did he give rise to the opinion one should see him as such. He was a brilliant man that brought many people happiness. He will resurrect but it will be a time when all righteous souls resurrect in the age to come.
Just to play Devil’s advocate, Clint, although I agree with aspects of what you are saying, here is what I see as the difference. Present-day Christians are not following the Torah to any real degree, whereas Chabad is Torah-observant, am I right?
I think the very early Christian church was absolutely in the same position that Chabad is in, specifically, the group of people in Chabad who believe that their Rebbe was Moshiach. (
I am under the impression not all of the folks in Chabad believe that?)
The person who eliminated the necessity of Torah observance in the early Christian Church was Saul / Paul, who said he’d had dreams and visions where Yeshua / Jesus appeared to him & told him that the Christian sect would no longer have to follow the dietary laws of the Torah and such.
This was awfully convenient for Saul / Paul, and Christianity really took off at that point, since Gentile converts no longer had to be convinced to take on the laws of the Torah.
It would not shock me if at some point in the future, something crazy like that happened to part of Chabad. Then again, I am definitely, definitely not too knowledgeable about Judaism in general or Chabad in particular.